Thread: Ammo Shortage

Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

I don't care to make controversial statements that would open me to charges of trolling

I don't think you're a troll, GWH. I've never thought that about you in the past either. I also don't think you're a racist either, so I'm not going to try to slap that label on you.

I do think your impressions on this issue are flawed, and that you carry a negative bias (and I would even say understandably so, based on what you've written about your past experiences in this thread and others) that prevents you from looking at this objectivly and dispassionatly.

why don't you look murder rates in major metropolitan areas and compare the rate of violent crime to the race statistics

Well, the first problem with that is that the real correlation is in income levels or economic opportunity. Once that data is teased out, we see that race is a much less significant factor.

or you could just go work in the hood for a while

I'll do you one better, I lived in the hood for many years. Before I moved to Long Beach WA, I lived in the other Long Beach, the one in California. I lived in Snoop Dog's old 'hood. Not some middle class enclave, but right in the middle of one of the worst neighborhoods in LA county. It was a very mixed sort of ghetto, with mexican gangs, black gangs, asian gangs, and me.

You know what I saw a lot of? Hard working and honest people who were trying to get ahead, in spite of where they were starting out. Was there crime? Hell yes. There were drive-bys, their were large street fights, and their was lot's of property crime as well. It was all done by fewer than 2% of the residents.

You know what else I saw? I saw cops who were often overworked and under supported who did their best but often made the same kind of mistakes that you're making, which is assuming that because the perpetrators were minorities, that all minorities were suspect. I saw times where victims were almost as likely to be taken into custody as the criminals because the responding officer just didn't trust anyone. This is why I don't take the opinion of a police officer when they start talking about the proclivities of minorities.

Don't get me wrong, I generally like cops. I've never been mistreated by one, and I've had to call on them often when I lived there. But Cops are human beings in the most stressful job imaginable. It's amazing they don't make a lot more mistakes than they do. Let's be honest, when you deal with criminals every day, everyone starts to look like one.

I have considerable empirical data on this subject which precludes me from allegations of trolling

I think your impressions are colored by your gut instincts, which are easily fooled by your biases. This is true of everyone.

I would encourage you to look at such places as
Flint, Michigan (MI) Detailed Profile - relocation, real estate, travel, jobs, hospitals, schools, crime, move, moving, houses news, sex offenders

and
Ann Arbor, Michigan (MI) Detailed Profile - relocation, real estate, travel, jobs, hospitals, schools, crime, move, moving, houses news, sex offenders

these two cities have very similar populations, locations, and many other factors
these are also numbers of a completely non political sort

All I'm going to say about these two cities is that one of them (Ann Arbor) is a college town with a median household income of over $53,000 a year and rising, while the other (Flint) has a median househole in $26,143 and falling.

Ok, I lied, I'll say more. What are the chances of getting a job right now in Flint? Compare that to the chances of finding work in Ann Arbor. Do you really want to use these two cities to make your point? Because from where I stand, they make my point very well.

KEEP IN MIND
these numbers are actual murders and not calls to service or complaints of shots fired
this doesn't even scratch the surface of the amount of shooting that really happens (the real topic)
I've counted over 100 rounds in one 8 hour shift on more than one night
I've also seen/heard drivebys in which the rate of fire was fast enough to prevent counting rounds
ie. multiple shooters simultaneously

Do these numbers show a huge difference in crime between these two cities? Hell yes they do. But you better look at the numbers a lot harder if you want to find what the real cause of crime is. People with limited opportunity are more likely to commit crime. It's very simple, but it's not so easy to see from street level.


I can understand why someone (espicially a cop) would make this mistake. Your beat is in a very poor area. Blacks tend to be poor for a variety of reasons, so the poor neighborhoods tend to have more black residents. There's a lot of crime happening in poor areas, so as a cop you find yourself arresting black people a lot. You may naturally start to think that blacks commit more crime because that's the way they are.

But, you'd be wrong.

I agree with almost your entire post Joe.

exception being the implication that moderate income levels are responsible for crime
I can't say what I really want to here.





Last time I was accused of racism (when I cared enough to give a rebuttal)
my reply was that
" If the color of your skin is really a factor then white people ARE better than black people, then how do WE all rank?"

I started pointing at people in the room and ranking them from darkest to lightest and ended with the redhead.
I even went so far as to ask the blonde woman if she bleached her hair.
When she revealed herself to be a brunette
I proceeded to get down on my hands and knees and "hail" the redhead guy.
I then pointed out how ridiculous it could be that one was slightly better than another because he was slightly lighter.
" What if one gets a tan and the other stays inside?"
"Do we trade places?"
" What kind of an idiot would really believe this stuff?"

All I can say is I hope I vindicated myself by pointing out how truly stupid the entire idea of racism is.

The unfortunate fact is that the 2% we mentioned IS part of this minority population, and that when they (the population) are present so are that 2%.
Population density IS a factor however, hence my originally quoted and questioned statement.

A higher occurrence of minorities.

I've seen some very well educated, articulate, polite, well dressed, and downright nice people who had completely backwards beliefs concerning other races.


That 2% causes me to be suspicious of all.
I'm very sorry that I don't have the time to sort the good from the bad.
I really am.


I'm sorry to be so off topic.
Joe if you care to, I think we should continue in PM.
this isn't fair to the OP

Originally Posted by jockeys

I never said he would, I said there's precedent, and there is. at this point, I'd say it's a toss up. some of the dems want it to come back (feinstein, boxer, etc) some seem to want to avoid the issue.

also, as a registered Libertarian, i'm going to take issue with you describing obama's stance as such, it's not at all, he's merely avoiding the issue. he may or may not keep avoiding the issue, and i hope he does, but avoiding the issue is NOT the Libertarian stance.

This is what I don't get....since becoming president, in fact within the first 100 days, he's SUPPORTED allowing guns in National Parks, SUPPORTED allowing guns in DC and OPPOSED a new assault weapons ban. For a democrat president with A LOT of bigger issues to deal with in the first few months of his administration, I'd say he's done a pretty good job of supporting gun rights (and I'm sure the libertarian party agrees with all of these stances)....just because he's not pushing hard to legalize mini guns for the general public I don't think disqualifies his stance on the issue from being described as "libertarian"....again, especially for a democrat in the first 100 days when there are WAY bigger issues to tackle!

This is exactly what I meant about people ignoring his stance and his voting record and what he says he'll do and won't do (since becoming president) and instead casting this grey cloud of speculation, as if (despite his record) he's really got some hidden agenda that he's gunna unleash any day now.....it's just baseless speculation.....or do ya'll know somethin I don't? Did you get a memo? If you did, fwd the memo to me!!! =)

Sorry.....don't mean to sound crass....it's just that I've been watching Obama very closely on this one...if he were trying any funny stuff, I'd be the first one to call him out and criticize him for it.....I'll admit I was originally concerned about his stance on guns when he took office (due to his voting record in Illinois), but since then, he's put those concerns to rest with his policy stances and voting record....and until he starts saying scary stuff, I'm not guess or automatically assume he's lying or hiding something.

It's impossible to prove the non-existence of something, so if ya'll wanna keep believing there's some "hidden agenda" that's just around the corner, go ahead....but it doesn't jive with the facts, and it's just fueling this hysteria and making ammo freakin expensive/non-existent for all of us good folks here on SRP!!!

PS: you gotta admit tho, the irony of this situation is stunning....."OMG, he's gunna restrict our freedom to buy ammo by lowering the supply and jacking up the price!!! BUY BUY BUY!!!"......... "Ahhhh, hell, all the ammo is gone and the price is through the roof!! Damn that Obama, scaring us into doing his bidding for him! Let's buy MORE AMMO before he does it again!!!" heh....sorry, it's just amazing how that works!

he knows that if he went after guns it would be the end of his career

second term

that is my prediction

maybe even late first term
after they "get stuff done"

ok really I meant after the 2010 election
they can't afford a shift in sentiment