Thread: Pres. Obama, between a rock and a hard place.

Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

No one is holding you down but YOU.

not so. We are all products of the society we were brought up in and our parents.

Who we are has very little do to with us, and a whole lot to do with every one around us. IMO.

Originally Posted by 0livia

Somebody who can read stats.

The funny thing about using stats to justify classism is that the same rationale can be applied to Justify racism, ageism, ect. Kind of a slippery slope.

Who said anything about justifying?

Originally Posted by Del1r1um

...Seriously, all of this classism stuff is a cancer... money buys elections and votes...?? I thought conservatives were supposed to be running the conspiracy. How did we end up with a democratic majority everywhere and a democrat in the white house.. all of those power brokers must really have something up their sleeve.

Well, if you thought that conservatives run the conspiracy, you thought wrong. You're making the mistake that the Democratic Party is somehow interested in helping the poor at the expense of the wealthy. No, the DNC is interested in the DNC, and having control of power. Same with the GOP. . See, the people who have power and influence don't all agree with one another. They don't all form a secret society and have a secret handshake and all decide to push for the same agenda. No, they are like any group, they compete with each other, but they'll clean out your wallet just the same.

I'll say this again, just to be very clear (it seems like you missed it), I don't begrudge the rich their money, I don't feel envy for their fancy car or their "ceement pond", I don't want them to give up their wealth so I can sit on my ass and watch daytime soaps. This is not about class envy, and calling it that really misses the point. It's not money that I want to take away from the rich, it's influence.

If you really don't think that money buys influence, then why do you think that people contribute money to a political campaign? Call your congressman and see if you can get him on the phone. Now contribute $10,000 and try to get him on the phone. Guess what? He'll have time to talk to you personally after the $10,000 campaign contribution. He'll be very interested in hearing your opinion, and he's very likely to vote that way if he can get away with it. Oh, sure, he's not gonna' cave in on some outrageous request for any ammount of money, but if it's where a highway gets built, or which defense contractor gets a leg up for a big procurement deal, he's happy to help grease the wheels.

Originally Posted by gregs656

not so. We are all products of the society we were brought up in and our parents.

Who we are has very little do to with us, and a whole lot to do with every one around us. IMO.

hmmm, disagree. your statement brings to mind the nature vs. nurture argument from psych 101.

those things which you mention are FACTORS. I would say, somewhat trivial factors. In the end, the choice (and the responsibility) for who you are and what you become is yours and yours alone.

Originally Posted by 0livia

Somebody who can read stats.

"There are three kinds of liars,there are liars, damnable liars and statiticians." Mark Twain.

As for the conspiracy and wether it was left or right, what if it were both? What if both sides of the equation were run by the same boys in the same backroom?
What if there was no difference between the two sides other than modis operandi? What if we were foolishly scratching each others eyes out to promote an idealism/party/philosophy that is controlled by the same unseen hand? What if we have been beaten by one fist for eight years simply to turn the other cheek and be beaten by the other fist? It used to be said that with Republicans you get recession and with Democrats you get war. Now you are getting both by either one. You cant tell the tax and spend democrat from the tax and spend republican. You cant tell the powermongering democrat from the power mongering republican. You cant tell the greedy selfservers from the other greedy self server. Here we are the masses fighting each other while the machine that produces wealth and privilege for the sake of the wealthy and privileged moves along unmolested.

Originally Posted by jockeys

hmmm, disagree. your statement brings to mind the nature vs. nurture argument from psych 101.

those things which you mention are FACTORS. I would say, somewhat trivial factors. In the end, the choice (and the responsibility) for who you are and what you become is yours and yours alone.

Based on what?

It's not nature vs nurture at all. That's a foolish debate anyway, it should be pretty obvious that it's an interaction. I'm talking about something quite different.

Everything we do is influenced, and influences, everything around us. To infer we just get up one morning and decide to become something, or take our life in a certain direct, with out socially driven factors is perhaps a little short sighted.

Talking about personal history and social background as 'trivial' factors is quite incredible. I wonder if you have anything to back that idea up?

Originally Posted by gregs656

Based on what?

It's not nature vs nurture at all. That's a foolish debate anyway, it should be pretty obvious that it's an interaction. I'm talking about something quite different.

Everything we do is influenced, and influences, everything around us. To infer we just get up one morning and decide to become something, or take our life in a certain direct, with out socially driven factors is perhaps a little short sighted.

Talking about personal history and social background as 'trivial' factors is quite incredible. I wonder if you have anything to back that idea up?

based on my personal philosophy. what are your ideas based on?

i *DO* think that people can wake up one morning and decide to become something. I did. so, my experience says it is that way. many people I know have similar experience. thus, I believe it to be possible. and if it's possible, then it's everyone's duty to do it.

Originally Posted by jockeys

based on my personal philosophy. what are your ideas based on?

i *DO* think that people can wake up one morning and decide to become something. I did. so, my experience says it is that way. many people I know have similar experience. thus, I believe it to be possible. and if it's possible, then it's everyone's duty to do it.

Well look around you.

There are different types of social influence.

There are people who come from a poor background, and don't want that for themselves and strive to do better, there are those who fall into a poor mans life - and bow to the pressure of the crap that's going on around them.

There are those who's parents did well, and they could really go where ever they choose. Depending on how they're brought up, and where they live. Those kids who do ok until they fall off the tracks in their teens, and those who do better than expected and there parents have to take out a loan to send them to college.

There are those who are from the stinking rich, will go to a private school, and get a bloody good education. Depending on how they're brought up, and how easy they get it, what's expected of them. They will either get very good at golf and party with paris hilton, or they will establish them selves.

It's all about upbringing and social back ground. Everything we do is influenced buy it.

You might have picked your profession, but you can bet your bottom dollar that was influenced by something.

Many people might believe that was their experience, I flatly disagree with them. Like I flatly disagree that free will exists, it's all in the same bag.

Society produces us, society produces every one.

Originally Posted by joesixpack

Well, if you thought that conservatives run the conspiracy, you thought wrong.

This is not about class envy, and calling it that really misses the point. It's not money that I want to take away from the rich, it's influence.

If you really don't think that money buys influence, then why do you think that people contribute money to a political campaign? Oh, sure, he's not gonna' cave in on some outrageous request for any ammount of money, but if it's where a highway gets built, or which defense contractor gets a leg up for a big procurement deal, he's happy to help grease the wheels.

Joe, I admit that in my sarcasm I made some assumptions that missed the mark. The thing is, I don't think there is a conspiracy. The point I failed at making is that it doesn't make sense for a big shot to use their "influence" to elect officials that want to tax the crap out of them, cap CEO salaries, or regulate their business. This is where I don't completely follow the influence gripe. I know that contributions help, but why would these evil influence wielders shoot themselves in the foot?

And I do think that some people don't begrudge the rich their money, I did get that point when you made it, but I belive that class envy (and I do mean to call it that) runs rampant. I would go as far as to say that class hatred (directed at the wealthy) is pretty healthy too... This guy makes millions and millions, so let's tax the crap out of him... It's not fair that this guy has so much and other people don't... Why vilify and punish success?