Thread: Presidential speech to our children.

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

I didn't get my rights from any god. That god stuff should be taken out of the pledge of allegiance, too.

Careful what you wish for. If your rights are not God given inalienable rights, in other words: if your rights are man made, then your rights can be taken away.

I can't imagine how, or why, any American could wish for that.

Originally Posted by honedright

Careful what you wish for. I think Karl Marx had similar wishes.

Ok ok... this is getting good. Because I want to make my mind up for myself and formulate my own opinions (and encourage my children to do the same) without the government/society telling me what I should believe, I'm a communist? That's great stuff.

Isn't that the exact opposite? I require a more detailed explanation of what you are trying to say here, man... Maybe my understanding of Marx's philosophy is way off. Or... maybe you are trying to imply that if Marx and I agreed on one topic that we must absolutely agree on all other topics.


EDIT: Ok, you edited your post while I was composing mine, but allow me to retort. No "god" provided anybody's rights. That does not mean that the rights we have are not inalienable. By your line of thought, only in a world in which a God (who is a really nice guy) exists, can such rights exist. I disagree completely.

And while if your rights are man made they can be taken away, why could not God-given rights also not be taken away? It's been happening all throughout history, both ways, no matter who you ask.

Originally Posted by honedright

Careful what you wish for. If your rights are not God given inalienable rights, in other words: if your rights are man made, then your rights can be taken away.

I can't imagine how, or why, any American could wish for that.

He clarified it just before you poste oglethorpe.

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

Ok ok... this is getting good. Because I want to make my mind up for myself and formulate my own opinions (and encourage my children to do the same) without the government/society telling me what I should believe, I'm a communist? That's great stuff.

Isn't that the exact opposite? I require a more detailed explanation of what you are trying to say here, man... Maybe my understanding of Marx's philosophy is way off. Or... maybe you are trying to imply that if Marx and I agreed on one topic that we must absolutely agree on all other topics.

As Mark said, see my edited post. If God is removed from the equation, our rights are toast. And I believe that Marx wanted God out of the equation. Maybe I'm wrong about Marx, but not the other.

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

EDIT: Ok, you edited your post while I was composing mine, but allow me to retort. No "god" provided anybody's rights. That does not mean that the rights we have are not inalienable. By your line of thought, only in a world in which a God (who is a really nice guy) exists, can such rights exist. I disagree completely.

And while if your rights are man made they can be taken away, why could not God-given rights also not be taken away? It's been happening all throughout history, both ways, no matter who you ask.

Well, thanks, I'd love to take credit for this line of thought (see bold above), but credit must go to greater minds that existed here long before me, or any of you. John Locke comes to mind.

Originally Posted by honedright

As Mark said, see my edited post. If God is removed from the equation, our rights are toast. And I believe that Marx wanted God out of the equation. Maybe I'm wrong about Marx, but not the other.

Which can be read as: "Our rights are toast if we remove God from the equation, and no, I am not wrong." (correct me if I'm wrong)

We can agree to disagree on this one. As is the case with all "God discussions" when you discuss the world with God versus without, all rational discussion goes out the window because you can't prove anything either way.

However, and as such, one thing remains absolutely true, and that's the fact that you can not be absolute when talking about right/wrong and the existence of the supernatural.

Have a nice night.

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

Which can be read as: "Our rights are toast if we remove God from the equation, and no, I am not wrong." (correct me if I'm wrong)

We can agree to disagree on this one. As is the case with all "God discussions" when you discuss the world with God versus without, all rational discussion goes out the window because you can't prove anything either way.

However, and as such, one thing remains absolutely true, and that's the fact that you can not be absolute when talking about right/wrong and the existence of the supernatural.

Have a nice night.

Don't disagree with me, disagree with Thomas Jefferson. He's the one who wrote that concept of God given inalienable rights into the Declaration of Independence. And then Congress approved it.

Disagree with them, not me.

honedright --

It doesn't matter to me who said what. Because somebody said something profound in the past makes it decidedly so? If that was the case, we'd still be reading John Locke and Jefferson quotes from kerosene lamps.

For future reference, I will not be impressed with an argument just because somebody who is currently a skeleton agreed with you.

Did you know that Jefferson was a rich, slave owner who had illegitimate children numbering close to the double-digits (some of whom were born from his slaves)?

Originally Posted by Oglethorpe

Did you know that Jefferson was a rich, slave owner who had illegitimate children numbering close to the double-digits (some of whom were born from his slaves)?

This wouldn't be why he is a Democrat icon would it?

Ahhhh... the luxuries of staying unaffiliated