Thread: DEMOCRACY WILL FAIL

Originally Posted by 59caddy

here is the problem with thoughts like that. we do not want to be like other countries and just chug along. this is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA not some communist/socialist trash.

Well here in Australia our government runs on a blend of democracy and socialism, works well. Just take and use all the good points of both systems.
And if helping out a mate who is down on his luck is being socialist trash,you can just call me garbage steve.
By the way Australia is the only country in the world that did not officially go into recession in the recent economic crissis that was primarily caused by the actions of a country that, how did you put it "do not want to be like other countries"
Steve from the land of CHUG CHUG CHUGGING ALONG!

Originally Posted by JokiJo

I realize it's a touchy subject, especially someone who has gone through it, but it applies still.

I'm not being ignorant, I'm being blunt. You have no right to someone elses money.

Period. I don't care if you have cancer, I don't care if you're blind, I don't care if you lost your job, unless someone is willing to help you out, you don't deserve anything.

Money is time, time is someones life.

I'm sorry if that's offensive, but if you're picking hard earned money out my pocket because you can't pay your own way in this world, regardless the reason, then you don't need to be in this world. Sure, I'd GLADLY give money to save someones life, if it is someone I care for and choose to help.

Forgive me for being ignorant, but the above is a joke right, a little bit of sarcasm, your just trying to wind people up right?
Would you truly let some one suffer or die just because they don,t have a job or a bulging bank account?
If so, I do find it offensive and just a little bit sad. Good luck with your money and your life.

Originally Posted by 59caddy

something has gone terribly wrong lately and i am afraid it will all be gone soon. i served this country to defend my rights and yours, being given something for free is not a right but a burden on the rest of us who believe in true freedom and liberty

Hey man,

Taxes you pay are also meant to built roads, schools, streetlights etc and also for your security such as defense forces, police and fire depts. I can't see how these would limit anyone's belief in liberty and freedom.

The society where only the strong survive isn't real society at all.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Hey man,

Taxes you pay are also meant to built roads, schools, streetlights etc and also for your security such as defense forces, police and fire depts. I can't see how these would limit anyone's belief in liberty and freedom.

The society where only the strong survive isn't real society at all.

If it was a %100 of what you make, would that be a limit on your liberty and freedom? Slaves in Rome were after all able to go among the populace, but they were still slaves. The real question is what is what an individual thinks is reasonable. A society where only "the other guy" works does not work either. There has to be some middle ground. People who wish to only live off the people that produce will drag everyone down.

Look at California we have a government that eating it populace. We are in debt over $20 Billion and all they can do is pass a new tax or regulation every month. Jobs are vanishing before our eyes. We pass a tax on gasoline that can only be used on roads and within 5 years they move it all over into the general fund to support the bloated number of state employees that are needed to implement the new laws they pass. The roads in this state are the worst that I have seen in any state yet we collect more for road taxes than any other state. There are literally hundreds of such taxing injustices like this, and that is what people are going crazy about.

This attitude of entitlement is what is going to destroy us. Look at Europe they are declining by the day but they can not cut spending because the people that elect the politicians are the people that are on the dole.

Later,
Richard


Later,
Richard

Originally Posted by riooso

Look at California we have a government that eating it populace. We are in debt over $20 Billion and all they can do is pass a new tax or regulation every month. Jobs are vanishing before our eyes. We pass a tax on gasoline that can only be used on roads and within 5 years they move it all over into the general fund to support the bloated number of state employees that are needed to implement the new laws they pass. The roads in this state are the worst that I have seen in any state yet we collect more for road taxes than any other state. There are literally hundreds of such taxing injustices like this, and that is what people are going crazy about.

This attitude of entitlement is what is going to destroy us. Look at Europe they are declining by the day but they can not cut spending because the people that elect the politicians are the people that are on the dole.

Later,
Richard

I agree with your point here with growing taxes, but i think the problem is not so much with taxes you pay but mostly about poor politicians who are not willing to make unwanted and unpopular decisions to correct things.

Cannot quite understand your statement about entitlement. Nobody here thinks that we are getting our health services, or any other state/county provided services for free; we have already paid for them.
There have been huge saving programs in almost every EU country. First to prevent expenses from rising too much but also to prevent taxes from rising up to clouds. Luckily the politicians have been wise enough not to cut services too much from those who cannot help themselves (health services, children and old people).

Free riding is somewhat unknown term what it comes to taxes. I wouldn't call an old wino sleeping in the street as a free rider just because he doesn't pay taxes from his nonexistent incomes. Also little kids who pay no taxes are not free riders. Everyone else pays, way or another.

Regards,
Tomi

Originally Posted by Sailor

Free riding is somewhat unknown term what it comes to taxes. I wouldn't call an old wino sleeping in the street as a free rider just because he doesn't pay taxes from his nonexistent incomes. Also little kids who pay no taxes are not free riders. Everyone else pays, way or another.

Wow! This just gave me an idea for my retirement!

New retirement objective: Quit job now, pan handle for a bottle of vino ordinare and a corkscrew, brown paper bag (comes with the vino), and a free (!!!) park bench.

Y'all pay for everything else, thanks!

Originally Posted by JokiJo

I'm not being ignorant, I'm being blunt. You have no right to someone elses money.

I'm sorry if that's offensive, but if you're picking hard earned money out my pocket because you can't pay your own way in this world, regardless the reason, then you don't need to be in this world. Sure, I'd GLADLY give money to save someones life, if it is someone I care for and choose to help.

I suspect you have been taking other peoples money since the day you were born, or it has been taken on your behalf. It is all well and good to make an argument and have an opinion, but if you say one thing and do another then the hypocrisy bells will start ringing.

Also, you state that you would gladly give your money to save someones life. So what if you don't have any money? I'm guessing at some point in your life you've asked your mate if you can have a bit of change for a pint or a bit of grub in town or something, and eventually returned the favor? That's really all we're talking about with social schemes. I pay in to help you, you pay in to help me. Some people take more, some people spend more. However, when you need it, that service is there and all the money stuff becomes so irrelevant it's not even worth mentioning.

Now, I'm not some raging socialist by any stretch of the imagination, I just don't put much stock in having pots and pots of cash. As of right this second, no one has managed to take any of it with them. If your basic measure for people's eligibility to exist on this Earth is money, you really need to see a bit more of the world. I'm not really convinced any of us 'need' to be here, but we're here, so lets get on with it.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Free riding is somewhat unknown term what it comes to taxes. I wouldn't call an old wino sleeping in the street as a free rider just because he doesn't pay taxes from his nonexistent incomes. Also little kids who pay no taxes are not free riders. Everyone else pays, way or another.

Regards,
Tomi

The example given is a valid one and this topic is so large it can not be covered here. People who can not help themselves is entirely different than somebody who is able bodied who will not work. Entitlement for instance, there are a lot of international companies who will not got to France because when you hire someone there you have given him or her a job for life. You can not fire them, you can not lay them off, the government is in you face. So... the people there have a sense of entitlement, kinda like a government job. Government workers in California have a sense of entitlement, they have a job for life, it is almost impossible to fire one or cut back their numbers.

In closing the topic was about Democracy and how it can not exist long term. When the Government workers total 51% of the voting population and a politician says that they will raise their wages.....big guess who they will vote for. Government workers, for the most part, produce nothing. They consume GDP to implement programs for the betterment of society which is all well and fine but when they reach a certain number that they outnumber the people that really producing anything the country, will fail.

I am sure that I don't have to make you aware that Finland taxes the individual very heavily. Your income tax for middle income tax payer is 60% plus VAT, plus petrol tax......very long list indeed.



Take Care,
Richard

Originally Posted by riooso

Entitlement for instance, there are a lot of international companies who will not got to France because when you hire someone there you have given him or her a job for life. You can not fire them, you can not lay them off, the government is in you face.

This is absolutely, utterly, ludicrously false... while France is not following the "at will" mantra so common in many states, it is actually very easy to fire an employee. It gets complicated when you try to fire a sizable portion of your workforce, however...

Originally Posted by MichaelP

This is absolutely, utterly, ludicrously false... while France is not following the "at will" mantra so common in many states, it is actually very easy to fire an employee. It gets complicated when you try to fire a sizable portion of your workforce, however...

I work for a company that got hit hard with all the global downturn and there was division in France that needed to downsize, it took 6 months and they had to pay the wages till the workers were found jobs in other sectors. Like I said, the government was in their face and the workers never lost a paycheck till they had other jobs. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

About absolutely, utterly, ludicrously false.....in you own statement you give two exceptions "at will" and "sizable portion". The business in question was not "firing" the workers they were having to cut back because they just did not have the revinue coming in.


Later,
R