Thread: DEMOCRACY WILL FAIL

Originally Posted by honedright

Wow! This just gave me an idea for my retirement!

New retirement objective: Quit job now, pan handle for a bottle of vino ordinare and a corkscrew, brown paper bag (comes with the vino), and a free (!!!) park bench.

Y'all pay for everything else, thanks!

Feel free to do as you wish.
Wouldn't change the amount of taxes i pay.

Good point, anyway

Hey you said "an employee", not "a sizable portion of the workforce". Notice there is a slight difference between "one" and "many". Also, if I follow your story correctly, your company successfully fired the guys... which tends to fly in the face of your statement of "job for life".

The trick to avoid the problem, if it happens to your company again, is to first look up how many employees you need to fire to trigger a "plan social" then fire one or two less than that amount. Fire the guy(s) that would have triggered the "plan social" for another reason a few months down the line. If you play your cards right, you can actually fire them for "faute grave" real fast (reading private emails from work, browsing forums from work, sending his resume to another company from work, ...) or even get them to resign.

Finally, if your company wants an "at will" workforce they should use CDD (fixed term employment) and/or interim workers. The problem is that they can't renew CDD or interim indefinitely (3 successive contracts maximum)... and those guys will leave your company in a pinch if they find a CDI (normal contract).

Originally Posted by Sailor

Wouldn't change the amount of taxes i pay.

No, but it'd sure change the amount I pay

Whoooo-hoooo!!!!

Originally Posted by riooso

In closing the topic was about Democracy and how it can not exist long term. When the Government workers total 51% of the voting population and a politician says that they will raise their wages.....big guess who they will vote for. Government workers, for the most part, produce nothing. They consume GDP to implement programs for the betterment of society which is all well and fine but when they reach a certain number that they outnumber the people that really producing anything the country, will fail.

I am sure that I don't have to make you aware that Finland taxes the individual very heavily. Your income tax for middle income tax payer is 60% plus VAT, plus petrol tax......very long list indeed.



Take Care,
Richard

If there's really 51% of all working for the goverment or any public services, then you are in trouble. I did not know that. Maybe you need better politicians. I thought that the old Soviet Union or East Germany was the only place where such amount of citizen are working for the state.

Alhough it is a fact that countries with public health systems have also higher taxes, but the comparison is valid only if you count the average sum people are using in their health care system in a country where such public system doesn't exists ( i hope i got this as i meant with my poor school English )

We have somewhat high taxes here, but your numbers were little incorrect.
Our income taxes are 7 - 30,5% while average being about 18%. Surely higher than you have there. Of course we pay VAT between 8 - 22% for almost everything we buy, but buing is always voluntary. This is another subject that would need own topic.

It's is most interesting to listen and learn different opininons. Makes me check my feelings about our systems in Europe also. Surely our system is not perfect but i think it is the easiest (and propably cheapest) way to take care of those who cannot do it by themselves.


Regards,
Tomi

Originally Posted by honedright

No, but it'd sure change the amount I pay

Whoooo-hoooo!!!!

Now, of course I'm kidding, sort of....(hmmmm, stop working, no taxes, live off of the public tit? Hmmm....)

But what if everyone decided, well not EVERYONE would...right?

But what if a LOT of people just decided, hey, I like this idea of everyone else paying for my expenses, so I'll let them?

How do you distinguish between those that CAN'T provide for themselves, and those that either WON'T, or do NOT WANT to provide for themselves?

What is my incentive to work if I know that someone else will provide for my basic needs?

After all, who needs comfortable housing, cars, nice new clothing, iPods and all the other trappings of a selfish and greedy capitalist society?

Give me food stamps, my bottle of wine, my spot in the alley, and gubment health care!!!

I stand corrected since your entry into the EU you have come a long way. When last in Finland, a while back, it was very high indeed.Your taxes now are actually lower than the US.


Thanks,
R

Originally Posted by honedright

But what if a LOT of people just decided, hey, I like this idea of everyone else paying for my expenses, so I'll let them?

Then things would have to change. Would be a sad day for society, wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by gregs656

Then things would have to change. Would be a sad day for society, wouldn't it?

Yes it would be sad. And so by providing the mechanisms today allowing for such a thing to occur, what's to stop it from happening? If not now, then down the road decades from now?

Yes, when everyone finally realizes that there is no more reason to work, because the government provides for all basic needs, where will the government get it's funding? Forced labor?

One of the main reasons I work is because my employer provides a health care benefit. My job also provides income allowing me to pay for separate health insurance for my wife and child. If the government provides a public option health plan, why should I continue to work?

When the farmers realize that they can have all of their basic needs provided by public funding, why would they want to break a sweat growing food for you and me? Then who will grow our food? The government? Who will do the work? You? Me?

It is true the US had run up too much debt, but what do we owe Europe or Britain for that matter. Were it not for US soldiers, there would be no France, Italy, Poland, Belgium or any other country there as we know it today. Sadly the US helped rebuild Germany, much of Europe and Japan which was completely insane. Japan should have been completely burned to the ground with Germany and left there to rot until Europeans rebuilt it completely on their own. The US has done more for the world that every country in Europe combined. Europe did nothing but suck off the colonies until the colonies decided enough was enough. The US is also larger than every european country except Russia and unlike some has never been successfully invaded and occupied since 1812, and that was very brief. Yes, Europe has done well and their people are very well taxed for it too, but they, like the US need to mind their own business because Germany never repaid for the things we built back after WWII., and lets not forget what they did to the Jews at that time also.

Sometimes I really wonder how big those rocks are....

Apart for a certain percentage with no social self esteem, which is quite low, it is nothing desirable to fall into the social hammock.
Its not only money that you get. You also get getting dissed, getting disqualified from job competitions, getting moved out of your current sphere cause you have to downscale to a budget and your kids will notice that as well cause people will let them know. They fall back in school, have less chances and will not be able to move themselves out of misery or support you.

I guess those are enough reasons not to fool around with that system and ask for help that you don't need. At least thats how most people react. They rather eat the caulk from the windows.
In our social system we have quite a percentage of elderly people who get less (pension or whatever their insurance was) than the minimum and don't even dare to ask for support cause they are ashamed to do so.
They just don't eat til the next money arrives.
Some try to help themselves by collecting bottles.