Thread: GLOBAL WARMING/CLIMATE CHANGE TRUE/FALSE

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

I am not considering this as proof that global warming doesnt exsist, I am only putting it out there to show that some highly intelligent people, feel that science is being directed by money, and that opposing opinions are being subdued, while agreeing opinions are given free reign.

Uhm, that's interesting. You just learned that? There have been way more visible cases illustrating this point over the last decade, but they probably just didn't fit the narrative and were excluded from your favorite sources for propaganda.

Originally Posted by Jasongreat

Your second sentence above does not hold water according to the letter, he was a member as were the other members who signed his petition, yet they were not allowed a debate on the subject.

My statement is absolutely correct and you can verify it yourself should you choose to actually do something beyond talking. You're probably just not understanding what his issues with APS are and are just projecting on his letter something that you want it to be.

Gugi,
I respect your scientific mind, but you must admit that there is a whole lot of money, politics and emotion that are driving the science of anthropogenic global warming.

Where are the priorities behind advancing the hard sciences? Is this not where real solutions are realized? How much can we do to reverse a normal trend of climate that might be enhanced by CO2?
When I was in school, scientist were predicting sea levels would be about 40 meters higher than they are today.

Now that is a leap of faith, not science that we could reverse the climate. Do we really want to trust and give politicians the keys to control our climate and be so naive to think they do not serve themselves?

Follow the money and power...I wish we had a fraction of the funding in physics and chemistry that they pour into this soft science globaly overcooked mushy stuff. Extrapolations of extrapolations of the same old idea and if you question it you are dismissed as a lesser scientist. I always liked the lesser scientists that sport ideas that are new and inovative.

What type of scientists are we growing? Concensus boot licking yes men????? Science never advances that way. Issues that enter the realm of public opinion and politicians, driven by emotionalism, is not real science, and you know it...Even if true and all of the desired models are true, there is not a darn thing we can do about it.

The turkey has already thawed, sooner than we think it will be put back in the freezer as it has been done since time began. Stay warm while you can. The metaphor maybe corny, but it is a fact of geological history.

If we can keep this rock warm by CO2 and other greenhouse gases, we need to start building some very large SUVs and town cars and start firing them up.

Originally Posted by gugi

Uhm, that's interesting. You just learned that? There have been way more visible cases illustrating this point over the last decade, but they probably just didn't fit the narrative and were excluded from your favorite sources for propaganda.


My statement is absolutely correct and you can verify it yourself should you choose to actually do something beyond talking. You're probably just not understanding what his issues with APS are and are just projecting on his letter something that you want it to be.

I do not know if Jason had a problem with the first sentence of you second paragraph or with the rest of it but he is right your first sentence is wrong. At no point did he say the letter proved global warming was bull just that when a well known scientist resigns because of the way the APS is handling an issue, after 67 years it does raise some good questions. It is up to you to provide equally respected sources with contrasting points of view not for jason to do thats what makes it a debate. I feel that it is you that has failed to understand what his issues with the APS are, namely money and the way that funding leads research not the other way around. Yes the APS maybe a joke now (part of the reason for the letter) but im sure for a member that has served as long as he was he was not simply paying dues to get himself heard. Is it possible hes wrong? of course he could be suffering from dementia when he wrote the letter or had low blood sugar or just thought it was a funny joke, but it is worth a read and does raise some good questions which need to be independantly confirmed before being believed.

I have to admit I didn't read every entry in this thread no do I need to.
All it takes is common sense to see what we are doing to this planet
and a pair of eyes to see how we have turned this planet into our dumping ground. first it started with polluting the land, then the seas, now even the atmosphere. If you can't see that then you need to take your blinders off!
America is pretty bad, especially the cities(I live in NYC)but just look at China where people walk the streets with masks on and it ain't because they are making a fashion statement my friends. India is right behind China.
I guess it is easy to sit in the country and ignore what is happening in the world because you don't see it with your own eyes and you just see clear skies while laying in a field somewhere but you need to WAKE UP because if we don't stop killing this planet it will be too late.
Weather global warming is being helped by the natural cycle of the planet we are definitely contributing..no question.
And if anyone has a huge reason to lie about it are the people who want to save money by not paying millions on filtering there smoke stack or find another place or even way of disposing of the huge amount of waste we spew. That includes human waste, byproducts of factories, or just all of the garbage we throw out, not to mention the plastic islands floating and growing in our oceans.
So to the original starter of the thread, open your eyes and read a little or if that it too hard watch something besides FOX news.
Heaven help us if people with common sense don't start making these decisions instead of the politicians we have now who we all know get paid off by lobbyists to vote how they want.
A shame really on how selfish, fat, lazy, and arrogant most of us Americans are. Spent one day breathing in Chinas air and then tell me it all just evaperates and is gone..all better..WAKE UP!
OK, enough from me. I will go over some more posts in this thread but it is sad to see how many people truly think that the billions of people we have now not to mention in the past polluting this planet has no effect on it. Incredible.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Gugi,
you must admit that there is a whole lot of money, politics and emotion that are driving the science of anthropogenic global warming.

Of course. And there is a whole lot of money driving the politics and emotion against anthropogenic global warming. And there is a whole lot of money driving the politics and emotion of many many more issues. Take a look for example on what part of the enormous budget for national security is spent on military and what part is spent on research.
I've seen plenty of good science and plenty of bad science, and private and public money thrown at either just because of science politics.

My problem is with the trend of acting competent on a very complicated technical issue only because one assumes they have some great discernment and understanding of political motivation that surrounds it.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Where are the priorities behind advancing the hard sciences?

Well, a year ago there was a 'big' outcry over the president of the united states brainwashing children into his socialist agenda because he wanted to tell them to study hard and that math and science is quite important.
But in general the priorities are set by setting priorities in spending of private and public funds, the second part being much larger than the first. And as long as the american voters value populism over competence, they will end up with officials prioritizing the exact same way.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

When I was in school, scientist were predicting sea levels would be about 40 meters higher than they are today.

If that's the only wrong prediction, I'd probably equate science with religion. There is a lot of wrong scientific predictions, that's the nature of science. The fact is that in order to use science breakthrough you have to balance between certainty of the science and the usefulness - the more established something is the more useless it is. That's a whole other and rather complicated realm of how to make good policy.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Now that is a leap of faith, not science that we could reverse the climate.

No, it's a proven fact that we can reverse the climate pretty cheaply too - throw a bunch of nukes to create a shade from the sun and you're done. The questions are much more difficult - in general to what degree you can influence the climate with an overall positive effect to the current society (there will always be some who loose and some who benefit).

Of course, the easiest way is to trivialize a very complicated issue to the point where joe sixpack/plumber/yourfavoritename feels like they're the real expert and he needs to set all those overeducated moneywasting elitists right. And he'll put the blame on anybody just as soon as he hears the same talking point identifying the guilty party repeated 100 times.
I just find it very sad when I see the posturing of self appointed 'skeptics' in the media pretending to be qualified to even ask relevant questions when they have flunked intro level science in college and their critical thinking is below that of a chinese student applying for US grad school.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

What type of scientists are we growing? Concensus boot licking yes men?????

Well about a third is imported from abroad. As far as the generalizations about 'yes men', I think you'll have a very hard time coming up with a quantitative data that supports this even remotely. My personal impressions are quite different, but they're most certainly no good as a base for generalizations either.

Originally Posted by thehekler

It is up to you to provide equally respected sources with contrasting points of view not for jason to do thats what makes it a debate.

I'm not interested debating global warming, because all posters in this thread are unqualified to do so.

Originally Posted by thehekler

I feel that it is you that has failed to understand what his issues with the APS are, namely money and the way that funding leads research not the other way around.

I've encountered the issues of money and research funding many times, so I'm quite familiar with the process and it's pluses and minuses. The scientific word in conservatism and hierarchy is only rivaled by the church.
This is real life, not a la-la land, and good politics doesn't correlate with good science. Yet all of us are here on this forum due to technology some of which was based on scientific discoveries as recent as 20 years ago, so one way or another good science is being done.

I already said it but probably need to reiterate, where is the interest in the actual problems that need addressing - the relationship of science and policy making, or the appropriate role of science in our society? An old physicist turned to a poster boy by a propaganda machine is the stupidest thing to discuss. Why aren't people honest enough to apply the same standard to the beliefs they subscribe to, not only to the ones they're against?

Hey gugi!!! Your back! My friend who can twist just about any fact into a pretzel without even realizing it is back! Good to see you and I hope you bring a little sanity and entertainment back into my life.


Watch this guy closely or he'll be having you believe black is white in short order.

Originally Posted by 59caddy

this ought to get some great comments. most of you know i enjoy a great debate. so here goes.
i for one do not believe in any type of global warming/climate change as the facts are just not there. all the hype is based on computer models and not real science. just like the acid rain a few years back, which was proved to be just hype(no skin burns/paint peeling off cars/gravestones being dissolved). i believe it is cyclic. it is pretty easy to look up the weather charts and see the cycles in 20 and 50 years(roughly).
researchers are coming out more everyday stating there is no proof. in fact russian research teams are predicting a mini ice age. since 1998 there has been a slight cooling to the oceans and atmosphere.
one of the biggest claims is the polar caps are melting. what they are not saying is that over the last 15 years or so that the caps were growing and now are going back to their original size.
Al Gore and his crew do not like to be questioned as they have been more and more lately about facts and get quite upset when facts are presented. i guess i would be upset too if i had made millions using scare tactics on the general public and now stand to be disproved.
one side note. Al has one of the most energy inefficient houses here in middle tennessee, using up to 10 times what other homes the same size use. this has been documented here through public records. also his jet flights all over the world put out more so called green house gas than 1000 normal people would put out in a year. this by a man calling for the end of the internal combustion engine in his mostly disproved book.
so not lets hear what all you have to say

It does not matter if the science is correct or not this is an important topic.
Some of the facts are just that facts. Ocean levels have moved up
and more....

However we are all subjected to a flood of biased and agenda based assertions and presentations. For example cap and trade on carbon is being driven by those
that would make a market for it -- the same folks that made a market for
mortgage derivatives. Further Coal is the single most abundant energy resource the US has. We would be silly to sign any accord that eliminates it. We would however be
wise to limit our use of it.

Law and treaty stuff can hinder a nation. For example our "Johnson Act." kept international oil skimmers out of the Gulf.

I am more concerned by regional weather changes that could kill a wheat crop
or kill a corn crop a couple years in a row. Millions died of starvation in
China in the '60s because of crop failure and almost triggered a global
war because the mass of humanity migrating away from the famine looked
like an army on the move. The Korean War vets then in charge nearly
had kittens. Thanks to U2 overflights we discovered the truth before
things went crazy.

Originally Posted by gugi

I'm not interested debating global warming, because all posters in this thread are unqualified to do so.

I'm not really into this debate because....well I feel I have opinions but well...those are like @##holes.....everyone has one and they all stink.


But when I read that sentence of yours I've gotta wonder: Why bother participating in the first place then?

Originally Posted by gugi

My problem is with the trend of acting competent on a very complicated technical issue only because one assumes they have some great discernment and understanding of political motivation that surrounds it.



Well, a year ago there was a 'big' outcry over the president of the united states brainwashing children into his socialist agenda because he wanted to tell them to study hard and that math and science is quite important.
.

Gugi, Charlatans make a mockery of real science. If the current Admin or any other was truely interested in growing hard scientists, I and many others actively involved in chem and physics sure as hell have not seen it. It all boils down to public emotionalism that drives policy, and it has done a great job of taking our eye off the ball.
Not just my opinion bost most hard scientist I know feel the same way. This is not a platitude, we spend a small fraction on the hard science compared to this environmental simplistic stuff because it has the emotional attachment that gets popular opinion going.
And what of the inovations and solutions to correct this problem? They are not going to be solved by a bunch of tree hugging pansy sniffers, but real scientists.
This is the science we are neglecting, science has been corrupted on a global warming scale.


I have not seen the slightest improvement in the two years that this group has had total control from my perspective as a chemistry teacher. Social crap deeper and higher, but nothing to promote chemistry or physics.