Thread: Christmas poll

Originally Posted by gssixgun

THERE IS NO PROOF !!!! that is why they call it FAITH...
if there was any proof, you wouldn't need faith..... Arguing that there is proof, is an insult to your own faith

I think faith is just a different kind of proof Glen - the kind of proofs and evidences you admit into your life define what you believe to be true

Originally Posted by marosell

Show me something contemporaneous.

Find yourself a copy of Fox's book of martyrs. It will show how every one of those in Jesus' inner circle died for their faith in that He is exactly who He said He is. The Apostles knew Him better than anyone. If they knew He wasn't the Messiah do you truly think they would die as they did?

Apostle	Where died	When died	Manner of Death
Peter (Simon Peter), Bible writer	Rome, Italy (Nero)	54-68AD	Homicide: crucified head down, at his own request
Andrew, son of a John & brother of Peter (Matthew 4:18)	Edessa, Greece	?AD	Homicide: severely scourged & tied by ropes on x-shaped cross where he hung 2 days to expire
James, son of Zebedee & Salome and elder bro. of John (not bro. of Jesus) the Bible writer	Jerusalem, Israel (Herod)	44 AD (the 1st martyred)	Homicide: beheaded with sword; Mark 10:39 & Acts 12:1-2
John, son of Zebedee and bro. of James; Bible writer	Ephesus, Turkey or Turkish Isle of Patmos	98 AD	thrown in boiling oil but unharmed; died of Natural causes in Ephesus
Philip of Bethsaida	Hieropolis, Syria		Homicide: crucified
Bartholomew (Nathaniel)	India or Armenia		Homicide: beaten/flayed, and crucified head down
Thomas (Didymus)	Edessa, Greece		Homicide: lanced by idolatrous priests & burned up in an oven
Matthew (Levi), of Capernaum the Bible writer	Nadabah, Ethiopia	about 60AD	Homicide: axed to death with a halberd
James (son of Alphaeus); Bible writer (? half bro. of Jesus?)	Jerusalem, Israel	AD66	Homicide: thrown down from the Temple tower & not dead so clubbed to death with a fullers club at age 94
Jude (Thaddaeus...Judas Lebbaeus)	Edessa, Greece	AD72	Homicide: crucified
Simon the Zealot (the Canaanite)	Brittainnia, Europe		Homicide: crucified
Judas Iscariot	Jerusalem, Israel		Suicide: by hanging Matt. 27:5
Matthias (the 11 remaining Apostles chose him to replace Judas)	Jerusalem, Israel		Homicide: stoned and beheaded
Paul (chosen by Jesus on the road to Damascus)	Rome, Italy	66 AD	Homicide: beheaded

This is contemporaneous and part of Simom Greenleaf's evidence If you will just look it up.

BTW Christians are not supposed to argue religion with non-believers, I do not know about

Gssixgun, where is this in God's word?

Now these are just my opinions, but I have done a bit of reading, and honestly those books you guys keep linking to, are not "really" proof...

These guys include the man that is known as the Father of modern forensic evidence. Simon Greenleaf was a Law Professor at Harvard who began his quest to disprove Jesus and the Gospels but after intense investigations came to believe the Bible and became a Christian himself.

If his evidence would hold up in a court of law I think that should give it some merit.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

The Apostles knew Him better than anyone. If they knew He wasn't the Messiah do you truly think they would die as they did?

Couldn't that same argument be used for jones town or the branch dividians or pretty much anyone that dies for their faith?

Originally Posted by TheBaron

Couldn't that same argument be used for jones town or the branch dividians or pretty much anyone that dies for their faith?

Jones town and the branch dividians were mass suicides they were not individual people standing for their faith in the face of those who were hostile towards it over approximately a 50 year period. Those people followed their leader to death. Jesus never told any of His apostles to die with him in fact He told them to go and make disciples teaching them everything He had taught them. As for others who die for their faith (like suicide bombers) they believe in a "works" religion and they believe those works are their ticket to heaven. God's word says
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph.2:8-9.

These groups were tragic losses they were not martyrs, I hear no voices rallying to follow in their steps and nowhere in the Bible do I find suicide considered a righteous act.

I understand there is a significant difference in the message and fellowship between Jesus Christ and David Caresh.

What I am saying is that your argument, that people willing to die for the person they followed should be proof of their leaders message, is a pretty hollow argument. You could make that same statement for suicide bombers. Has their religion no seen persecution? are they not doing it out of faith?

We could just as easily say that regardless of why they died or who told them to do it (or even made them do it). The fact is that the members of branch dividian were willing to die for the person they followed. So based on the principals of your statement, their fellowship is just as valid as christianity.

Understand that I am not comparing christianity to a cult, I'm simply saying that your statement proves little. It is just a silly as the video posted by Philidelph about "The Delusion of Religion". Did you watch that video? The guy starts by saying he's going to disprove religion then follows by insulting and talking down to everyone that is not atheist. Using as his only arguments against religion (that I could find) was that religion is false because every rational person outside the bubble of that religion does not believe it and that the originating story of the religions sound similar to a fairytale. Where is the proof in those statements?

Originally Posted by TheBaron

I understand there is a significant difference in the message and fellowship between Jesus Christ and David Caresh.

What I am saying is that your argument, that people willing to die for the person they followed should be proof of their leaders message, is a pretty hollow argument. You could make that same statement for suicide bombers. Has their religion no seen persecution? are they not doing it out of faith?

We could just as easily say that regardless of why they died or who told them to do it (or even made them do it). The fact is that the members of branch dividian were willing to die for the person they followed. So based on the principals of your statement, their fellowship is just as valid as christianity.

Understand that I am not comparing christianity to a cult, I'm simply saying that your statement proves little. It is just a silly as the video posted by Philidelph about "The Delusion of Religion". Did you watch that video? The guy starts by saying he's going to disprove religion then follows by insulting and talking down to everyone that is not atheist. Using as his only arguments against religion (that I could find) was that religion is false because every rational person outside the bubble of that religion does not believe it and that the originating story of the religions sound similar to a fairytale. Where is the proof in those statements?

No Baron. Bless your heart. The distinct difference is that the Apostles were actually there and were the eyewitnesses, so they knew first hand what actually happened and if it was not so then they would have known it and the point is that they would not have willingly died for what they KNEW was a lie. Therefore it only stands to reason that it was true otherwise they would not have willingly died. And if you remember the followers of the David Koresh group of the Branch Davidians where not all necessarily there by their own choosing, nor were they witness to any great miracles like the Apostles were, they were just victims of an insane brain-washing madman, same with the Jonestown Jim Jones group. And like ENUF2 pointed out the Jonestown group was a mass suicide, and some of the Branch Davidian David Koresh group were suicide some murdered by Koresh and some by the government.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

Theory---

* abstract thought : speculation
* a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action
* a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena
* a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : conjecture c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject

Sounds like a belief system to me.





The Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Fact or Fiction?
also here are 2 works again by Professior Simon Greenleaf of Havard school of law. (The Testimony of the Evangelists: The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence‎/// An examination of the testimony of the Four Evangelists by the rules of evidence administered in courts of justice with an account of the trial of Jesus). Also if you don't care to read there is a dvd study called "The Truth Project". All of the Lee Strobel books" The Case for Christ, for Faith, for the Creator just to mention a few. Josh McDowell "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "More\\\The New Evidence that Demands a verdict". In fact here is a utube from him and there are more if you want to look for "unsurmountable " Evidence.
YouTube - The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict - Part One