Thread: Respect vs. Blasphemy

*headdesk*

I don't know how many times I ran in to the "well atheism is a religion toooo" BS growin' up in conservative midwestern territory.

This is part of what I don't like about religion as an establishment. It teaches you that it's ok to simply assert something without having any logical reason for why it is so. This is fine, if you're talking about un-provables, such as the existence of a god.

But it doesn't work in real conversation about real issues.

Ok ControlFreak, let's take a look at this.

This is ripped straight out of Merriam-Webster.

"
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"

Does definition 1 (either a or b) apply? Is atheism a worship or service or devotion to anything supernatural?

No.

As per definition 2, is atheism institutionalized with certain attitudes, beliefs, and practices? Careful here. Science does not equal atheism. Some scientists are religious. The real answer to this question is...

No.

Definition 3 is archaic, and irrelevant, but it still applies more to the modern-day religious than it does to atheists.

What about 4? A cause or pricipal which is held on faith? Again, careful. Skepticism and suspension of belief is not the same as denial. So again, the answer is...

No.

Here is what atheism is: a lack of belief. Not a BELIEF in NOTHING. You can't believe in such a thing, and most atheists don't, seeing as how they cannot prove it.

Atheism is, inherently, the denial of faith-based reasoning. Atheists deny the idea that they should believe something simply because some dude told them to, but they do not deny the concept itself. They simply have no factual reason to believe in it.

Atheists do not believe in any gods.

That is it.

They don't actively believe there is no god (mostly - a few do, but it's uncommon). They have no ritualized system of traditions or beliefs. They have no object of worship. Nothing.

They simply don't believe in any god.

Ok. Now that we have this all drawn-out, can we stop with the straw men already and just deal with the real issue?

Originally Posted by ControlFreak1

Whew! Thank goodness for the spelling police, I just wasn't payin' 'ttention. I didn't think that you'd notice. Well, see, you can get somethings right, now can't you. Maybe someday before it's too late you'll work on the important stuff.

I do. My honing is pretty good now, and my pick up lines aren't bad either-- though I think that my follow up conversation is much better.


I have to say, I'm flattered... and a little disturbed... that you were thinking about me in particular when I hadn't even posted in the thread... or even this area of the forum for a while--

Originally Posted by ControlFreak1

I didn't think that you'd notice.

(and I think that I was acting more as grammar police than spelling police)

Originally Posted by Pete_S

(and I think that I was acting more as grammar police than spelling police)

Ah! And then you screw up/choke right when you're doing good. Oh well.

Defamation Bill

Section 36
(1) A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000. [Amended to €25,000]
(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters blasphemous matter if (a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.

I'm Christian and I'd be in trouble inside the denomination I belong to with this as law because I outrage people all the time. (I will tell them, Get off your pew and get busy! The Church is for the sinner not the building for the saints. If I saw an attitude like yours before I surrendered I'd probably still be lost. Without the indwelling of Christ this place is nothing more than a country club, and various others.)

Defamation and liable is one thing but this (I have a Greek word for it. Bull!) I've said it time and time again Religion without relationship is worthless.

The quote on religious affiliations of inmates I do not doubt in the least. What I do doubt is their true profession ( anyone ever check how often any of these people were actually involved with Religious activity in or out of a Church environment (or religious establishment)? I know I spent time and there was times I'd rather sit in a service than a cell.) Just because someone calls himself a "Christian" ,a mechanic, a baker,whatever doesn't mean his life backs it up. Also, notice that " Protestant" should be broken down further, or add to: Church of Chris, Pentecostal, Adventist & Orthodox (about another 5%) are considered Protestant an Evangelical in nature.

The comment-

I don't know how many times I ran in to the "well atheism is a religion toooo".

By their definition it is -

4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"

Faith- (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust (3) : something that is believed especially with strong conviction.

It is not Religion in a Corporate sense but it is a personal belief system which dictates ones motive and direction. I can live with that.

One more thing, can anyone point me to this full bill online? Seeing how this is section 36 I'd love to read the rest.

Xman Thank you for this thread I've enjoyed reading through it. As for religious fundamentalism, I'd perfer to call it Religious self-righteousness or Pharisaical thought. Both of which I personally have issues with.

I have no respect for religions other than Christianity. I respect the person that practicies other religions, but not the religions themselves.

A religion, in the context of this thread, is such that a belief in the religion is mutually exclusive of all other religions. If you believe in Christ, you automatically disbelieve any other religion, and should not respect it. If you believe in Muhamad, then you automatically disbelive, and disrespect, all other religions than Islam.

The practictioners of the religions should respect all people. However, if you respect other religions, you are not a true believer of your own religion.

Matt

Ok, here I go again: "Remember the word I gave to you. A servant is no greater than his master, if they persecute me, they will also persecute you." These are the words of Jesus from the Gospel of John Chapter 15 verse 20.

IIRC they crucified this guy for blasphemy, and if they did this to him, I am to expect the same. Bad law in my book!

Originally Posted by mhailey

The practictioners of the religions should respect all people. However, if you respect other religions, you are not a true believer of your own religion.

That's not true of Buddhism.

And why would you not respect Buddhism?

Originally Posted by ENUF2

The comment-

I don't know how many times I ran in to the "well atheism is a religion toooo".

By their definition it is

Nope. Straw man, already dispelled even if you don't like it. Perhaps read that post and mine just prior re. sceptical (not=atheist) belief (not=faith) a little closer for better understanding. In short (again) scepticism is not a belief in what to think, but how to think and enables one question, examine to change their mind. Decidedly not religious. "Thou shalt have no gods before me", doesn't do that. Atheism is a failure to to adopt faith or belief in supernatural god(ess[e](s)).

Originally Posted by ENUF2

Xman Thank you for this thread I've enjoyed reading through it. As for religious fundamentalism, I'd perfer to call it Religious self-righteousness or Pharisaical thought. Both of which I personally have issues with.

That's because you are a fundamentalist (literal interpretations, YEC etc.), but I'm guessing you wish you could distance yourself from aspects of it. Anyhow, you're welcome for the good read. It has been enlightening for me as well.

Originally Posted by NYCshaver

And why would you not respect Buddhism?

Because it promotes delusional thinking, karma, reincarnation, which stunts minds from discovering reality as it actually is.

I guess this is as good a time to weigh in as any. I didn't want to do so before, because I wanted to give people the chance to interpret and express themselves without setting a specific tone to the discussion myself, but I see nothing in any religion worth respecting if there was ever any doubt and I think so primarily for the reason I just mentioned. Children particularly should not be indoctrinated into dogmatic thought because a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I do respect the person and have even moved a tiny Buddha from The Sacrificial Altar (a former set piece in my secular apartment) so that my brother could have somewhere to light his menorah during Hanukkah when he was over for Christmas dinner. Talk about pluralism.

Originally Posted by NYCshaver

why would you not respect Buddhism?

Buddhism is a Religion of works. I strive to become more to reach a higher state of being. This is most religions in a nut shell. The scales of good and evil attempting to end life with 51% in the good column. I know this isn't exact but it is a good way to put it.

I believe the Bible when it says" for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God". I also believe it when it says the penalty of sin is death (that is spiritual and physical".) I also believe that "While we were sinners Christ died for us".

My Faith relies in Christ no more no less. There are many good and moral people in this world (by the world's standards) & I respect them and I understand they have their beliefs Religious or not. My purpose and direction is found in the one I call Lord. It is not my job to save anyone. I can't. All I can do is be salt and light, a seed planter if you will. If truth is relative and there many paths to "what's next" then the road I'm traveling can not be one of them because Jesus said "no one comes to the Father except through Me". If truth is absolute and the Bible is correct when Jesus says " I am the way , the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through Me". I would be a liar and the truth would not be in me if I did not let this be known.

Even if I do not respect them per-say I still would not bash them or trash them publicly with hate filled speech. I am commanded to speak the truth in love. that is not the ooey gooey kind but the unconditional kind "Agape" is the original Greek.

Ya little children should only be indoctrinated into the dogmatic cult of atheism. Right?

For the Bible believing Christian, one reason that there can be no respect for other teachings is because the curse of God is on those false teachings no matter who is teaching it.
Galatians 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
But of course the discussion here is 'religion' and, if you don't know it, there is only one verse of scripture in the Bible which really speaks positively about and instructs what 'pure' 'religion' is.