Thread: Big hub-bub in Arizona right now...

This whole thing is really a very complex issue.

Back when most of the folks came to the U.S in the 1800s there were no Immigration Laws. You just got on the boat and got off at the dock and you made your own way. In the early 1900s they passed the first real Immigration Laws and that was to keep out certain groups they didn't like such as the Chinese and establish health requirements but just about anyone else could enter. It was much later they passed all these preference categories and restricted legal immigration.

So then they passed a real Immigration Bill in the mid 20th century but there was a problem. The problem was too many people profit off these illegals but yet you have this law so what's one to do. Well you create an agency to administer the law and you ensure they are weak and underfunded and undermanned so they really can't do their job and that takes care of that problem.

It's not about reading the law and enforcing it to the tee. If you read the latest version of the Immigration and Nationality Act it's very tough however federal Law contains many parts. There's the law itself and affecting the enforcement you have court decisions and you have interpretations by various criminal and administrative entities and then you have operating instructions which are the actual written policies by the agency to the field personnel telling them what to do. So the end result is a law that as a practical matter becomes a piece of Swiss Cheese and is filled with inconsistencies. Then you also have members of congress who can introduce "private Bills" to make basically illegal aliens of substantial means immune to deportation and even make them resident aliens and U.S Citizens as long as you can bribe these senators and congressman.

Remember the amnesty bill years ago which was supposed to solve our Immigration problems? All it did was make document vendors rich and legalized a lot of people who never should have been and drew even more illegals to the country.

Also with all the protestations of Mexico with the Arizona's Law it should be noted Mexico has almost as bad an Immigration Problem as we do with people from central America. The poorest of the poor who stay and work in Mexico and the smarter ones who travel through Mexico to come here and the Mexican population is there at every step of the way to exploit them in every way imaginable and then some to get what they can from them.

So you see having this cheap labor force is really the american way and it will never change like it or not. Also consider most Mexican's who come here illegally have no desire to stay here they consider themselves Mexicans and Mexican's always and they migrate back and forth and are here only to make money and have no desire to become part of this country. Most dream of going home and buying a nice spread and living there. Of course for many they will remain and many will be forced to become legal and become U.S Citizens to get better employment and opportunities.

Funny, all the years I worked for the INS I was told many, many times by people who I arrested that we as americans were a bunch of fools for allowing people to come here illegally or overstay visas and allow these people to take advantage of the country.

If you talk to people who work for ICE or the Border Patrol you'll find amongst that group the most sympathetic folks towards the plight of all Illegals because we deal with these folks on a daily basis and it gives you a real respect for what they go through to better themselves however in the end we really do need to control our borders but the Arizona law is not going to do it and won't stand.

With all due respect, I don't get you. It seems, not surprisingly, based on the general theme of your post history that you're opposed to this new Arizona law because you feel it, in your opinion, will regulate and interfere with the lives of certain minority groups.

Actually, my concern lies with the impact this law would have on other US citizens who would more likely be targeted.

Yet you also seem based on your post history to be an ardent supporter of big government and the current administration. Bigger government absolutely regulates and interferes with people's lives in an escalating manner.

That's exactly why I'm in favor of doing away with the FDA--let the marketplace determine whether people want to continue to buy drugs that harm or kill them. Enough of this big-government interference in our lives. And while we're at it, I'm really tired of the government regulation of unsafe cars. Again-let the marketplace sort this out. If Toyota wants to sell dangerous cars that maim or kill people, it's their right to do so. Market forces will weed this out. Eventually. After enough people die. Or get maimed.



Opposed to regulating and interfering with the lives of minorities but in favor of increased regulation and interference with the lives of all U.S. citizens? At least I give you marks for being fair.

These are just my observations and maybe they're completely incorrect in regard to your convictions.

Having any kind of law on the books that doesn't really mean anything or is largely ignored by the government expected to enforce such a law is one of the many problems we have in this country and such occurrences are insult and injury to the citizenry.

Originally Posted by ChrisL

Mr. Jeff:

With all due respect, I don't get you. It seems, not surprisingly, based on the general theme of your post history that you're opposed to this new Arizona law because you feel it, in your opinion, will regulate and interfere with the lives of certain minority groups.

Actually, my concern lies with the impact this law would have on other US citizens who would more likely be targeted.

Yet you also seem based on your post history to be an ardent supporter of big government and the current administration. Bigger government absolutely regulates and interferes with people's lives in an escalating manner.

That's exactly why I'm in favor of doing away with the FDA--let the marketplace determine whether people want to continue to buy drugs that harm or kill them. Enough of this big-government interference in our lives. And while we're at it, I'm really tired of the government regulation of unsafe cars. Again-let the marketplace sort this out. If Toyota wants to sell dangerous cars that maim or kill people, it's their right to do so. Market forces will weed this out. Eventually. After enough people die. Or get maimed.



Opposed to regulating and interfering with the lives of minorities but in favor of increased regulation and interference with the lives of all U.S. citizens? At least I give you marks for being fair.

These are just my observations and maybe they're completely incorrect in regard to your convictions.

Having any kind of law on the books that doesn't really mean anything or is largely ignored by the government expected to enforce such a law is one of the many problems we have in this country and such occurrences are insult and injury to the citizenry.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Navaja

Right on. I had to go through all that plus more to become a legal immigrant

Me too!, should be the same for all.

Originally Posted by shutterbug

I'm very tired of paying for people who come over illegally. We pay for their medical bills when they goto the emergency rooms. We pay for public eductaion for their children. We pay for their lack of insurance with higher premiums when they get into accidents and don't have insurance.
People who come into this country pay for very little to nothing to support society.

Do you have any figures to support this?

Most migrants are young people, if they are illegally in the country not only is it unlikely that they will become seriously ill overnight (because they are generally young people) it is also unlikely that they would risk being caught by going to a hospital.

Again, migrants are young people, by the time they are settled down with a family, they are probably paying their taxes just like you are. How ever, as most of the west, including the US, has an aging population and considering migrants tend to start families younger (such is the nature of their culture) they actually have a positive effect.

Whilst I have no doubt that some, don't have vehicle insurance, I would also bet my bottom dollar that issue is not exclusive to a migrant population - Do you know how much that perceived issue costs YOU a year? and how much of that is down to migrants?

You don't have to believe any of this, of course. How ever, from what I studied (and I did study it) migration has a whole bunch of measurable benefits and a whole bunch of PERCEIVED costs.

Originally Posted by shutterbug

The people who employ them don't pay taxes for them, they just tend to hold it out and keep it for themselves. They don't have insurance of any kind.

It is a two way business. Those who hire illegal immigrants are getting some economical benefit for it too. Aren't there any penalties for hiring such people? By making such act economically riskable wouldn't it be a sign for not even thinking of doing so.
At least here it goes like that. If someone comes here illegally, it is almost impossible to get a job. Not that we have much (or actually, almost not at all) illegals immigrants here.

Originally Posted by gregs656

Do you have any figures to support this?

Most migrants are young people, if they are illegally in the country not only is it unlikely that they will become seriously ill overnight (because they are generally young people) it is also unlikely that they would risk being caught by going to a hospital.

Again, migrants are young people, by the time they are settled down with a family, they are probably paying their taxes just like you are. How ever, as most of the west, including the US, has an aging population and considering migrants tend to start families younger (such is the nature of their culture) they actually have a positive effect.

Whilst I have no doubt that some, don't have vehicle insurance, I would also bet my bottom dollar that issue is not exclusive to a migrant population - Do you know how much that perceived issue costs YOU a year? and how much of that is down to migrants?

You don't have to believe any of this, of course. How ever, from what I studied (and I did study it) migration has a whole bunch of measurable benefits and a whole bunch of PERCEIVED costs.

Most Mexican illegals if they have issues especially medical and it's not an emergency would rather go back to Mexico for treatment or use some herbal country type remedy.

In general illegals if they are working and are paying into the system almost universally claim 10 exemptions of more on their withholding and they do not file and income taxes. The ones who use made up social security numbers or maybe YOUR social security number the money to social security for the false numbers goes into a suspense account SS has and just sits there apart from everything else. If they are using your number and you don't catch it when you file for SS you will be in for a big unpleasant surprise.

Originally Posted by Disburden

I'm sorry, but this is America and to profile people like this is racist and down right unAmerican.

Soo... ever traveled in the US while wearing a turban?
I visited the US in 2002 and talked with an engineer who converted to Sikh faith and wore a turban. If you think profiling is un-American, think again. It happens through out most of the US, going back until times long past.

These days it's the mulsims and arabs. Before that it were the black people, native Americans, and so on and so forth.

Mind you I am not criticism the US specifically. Other countries do similar things, except they do it to other groups. America is no better than other countries in this regard.

This discussion isn't (or at least wasn't meant to be) about going easy on illegal immigrants. Please, that discussion is on at least fourteen other threads. This discussion is about a new law in Arizona which duplicates federal law thereby encouraging already busy Arizona state and local cops to detain anyone they suspect may be an illegal immigrant. The issue is that this law (if enacted) will cause legal residents and citizens to be unnecessarily hassled by cops.

I am curious though. When some plays the old song about "being sick and tired of paying for illegal immigrants" I wonder if they know exactly how much it cost them personally and what they have sacrificed?

Originally Posted by icedog

This discussion isn't (or at least wasn't meant to be) about going easy on illegal immigrants. Please, that discussion is on at least fourteen other threads. This discussion is about a new law in Arizona which duplicates federal law thereby encouraging already busy Arizona state and local cops to detain anyone they suspect may be an illegal immigrant. The issue is that this law (if enacted) will cause legal residents and citizens to be unnecessarily hassled by cops.

I am curious though. When some plays the old song about "being sick and tired of paying for illegal immigrants" I wonder if they know exactly how much it cost them personally and what they have sacrificed?

Very true however if they came here legally it would not have cost them so dearly or caused them to sacrifice so much. That is a choice they make.

Personally, I think it's a silly law.

There are much more productive ways to curb illegal immigration. For example, streamline the process to become a legal citizen. If my lineage had to jump through the hoops that today's immigrants go through, I might not be a U.S. citizen myself. We should consider that maybe this problem exists because we have a flawed system.

Impose stronger penalties on employers who hire illegal immigrants. If they couldn't find work here then they wouldn't risk their lives crossing the border. People argue that there are American jobs taken by illegal citizens, and I agree that this is a travesty, but let's not overlook the fact that many companies abandoned good ol' American help to set up facilities in other countries to take advantage of cheap labor.

Also remember that our founding fathers were illegal immigrants, too!