Thread: Germany's top court says army can use weapons on German streets in extreme situations

Originally Posted by BobH

Dave

Yea, I think you are right, it might boil down to how nations are founded and the beliefs that are spawned out of that. Your northern neighbour is very different than the US in some respects likely because of that. It does not negate having to think for yourself nor does it make Americans the only thinkers on the planet lol. Different strokes for different folks and in the end no matter how you arrive there a relatively contented middle class is key to a stable society.

Bob

Actually Bob, I know a thing or two about Canada and interestingly, if you look at the history, the Canadian health care system was born out of a very capitalist notion. The government of the time was very concerned with output and discovered the average Canadian wasn't efficient fearing he would become hurt on the job and have to pay for health care. Hence they instituted a one payer system...

Why people call it anything but a one payer system up there is anyone's guess. Down here I get it. That said, look it up. When you get past all of the we are our brothers keeper propaganda, you'll note the Canadian Health Care System was merely a way of ensuring productivity, and was a very "capitalist" notion.

Someone was thinking up there at the time lol!

Sorry if I implied that American's are the only thinkers out there... that's certainly not true. But I do think individuals have to plan, or rather should plan a bit harder here than in other nations.

Having lived in Jamaica in the 80's where there by all rights are only two classes, the rich and the poor; I am not willing to go so far as to say that a strong middle class is what you need to have a stable society. A well funded military or police is all you need for that lol! A productive society however...

Originally Posted by earcutter

Your uncle was "milking" two systems... and gambling with his life. Isn't it illegal to use Finland's "social system" if you are a non-resident? And if he had no health care in the States, well heaven forbid he get into any kind of accident there. Getting into a car wreak could cost enough to put me in the poor house forever were I not insured.

Not illegal but perfectly ok. He was born Finnish and they do not ask your nationality when getting into health checks or treatment. Nowadays these same right are for all EU citizen. I know that many Russian folks use our system also at the eastern parts of the country where the border is near. However, they have to pay some for non-urgent treatments and medics.

Well, now this thread isn't about good or bad health care, but there seems to be a consensus that it is great. And it is the same as our school system.
Of course planning your future is important here, just like everywhere else.
Many people (incl. me) also pay for private health insurance. In some non-urgent cases (like times of H1N1) public treatment gets busy and you have to wait for a day or two before getting a time. With private insurance you can just walk into private health station at any time. Insurance costs are about 200 €/year for my family. I think it is cheap, although i haven't used it for years.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Not illegal but perfectly ok. He was born Finnish and they do not ask your nationality when getting into health checks or treatment. Nowadays these same right are for all EU citizen. I know that many Russian folks use our system also at the eastern parts of the country where the border is near. However, they have to pay some for non-urgent treatments and medics.

Wow!! In Canada you have to be a legal resident or a citizen, and even then, you have to be living in the country for three months.

Originally Posted by Hirlau

The more I look at this picture Wullie, the more I wonder where do they carry their razors?

The wimminz

haul all the semi-essential and non-essential stuffs.

Dave

Health care in Canada has a very socialist background Civilization.ca - History of Canadian Medicare - 1939-1948 - Tommy Douglas . It was quite like sold to the federal government on the basis of what you said. It was not born of that idea though. Funny how a socialist idea can fit in well with a capitalist outlook eh lol. I am sure glad that TC Douglas not only thought about it but actively promoted it and enough other thinking people thought it was a good enough idea to adopt it.

You had better plan for your future here too because you can't live very high on the hog on Canada Pension so you had better save one way or the other. You have also to plan on having adequate private health insurance for you and your family to cover the cost of prescription drugs, dental work and eye care most of which is not covered by OHIP in my case. You either buy it or work for a company that has that as part of it's benefits package. It is not all as snoozy and cruisy as one might be lead to believe.

A large fairly contented middle class that has the opportunity to be productive and all the things that go along with that are in the end necessary for a stable society. A well funded military and police will only allow you to contain a certain portions of society at one time. If most of a society is not content you have the seeds of a revolution and chances are that a well funded military and police will eventually be overwhelmed.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

Dave

Health care in Canada has a very socialist background Civilization.ca - History of Canadian Medicare - 1939-1948 - Tommy Douglas . It was quite like sold to the federal government on the basis of what you said. It was not born of that idea though. Funny how a socialist idea can fit in well with a capitalist outlook eh lol. I am sure glad that TC Douglas not only thought about it but actively promoted it and enough other thinking people thought it was a good enough idea to adopt it.

You had better plan for your future here too because you can't live very high on the hog on Canada Pension so you had better save one way or the other. You have also to plan on having adequate private health insurance for you and your family to cover the cost of prescription drugs, dental work and eye care most of which is not covered by OHIP in my case. You either buy it or work for a company that has that as part of it's benefits package. It is not all as snoozy and cruisy as one might be lead to believe.

A large fairly contented middle class that has the opportunity to be productive and all the things that go along with that are in the end necessary for a stable society. A well funded military and police will only allow you to contain a certain portions of society at one time. If most of a society is not content you have the seeds of a revolution and chances are that a well funded military and police will eventually be overwhelmed.

Bob

LOL! Like I said Bob - when you get past all the propaganda . Maybe U of T teaches history a bit different than other University's... who knows? The socialist story is WAY more romantic though. And yeah, socialist ideas can fit VERY well in capitalist "outlooks" when things like efficiency and saving the country as a whole a ton of cash is up for grabs. It's never as clear and simple as it seems.

To be fair, note that I am a Canadian. I have been living in the States for a little over 5 years and I am very well aware of the difference in systems.

A middle class is born out of education. If you don't have a good system to educate, you will not have the means to maintain a middle class. People romanticize the notion of revolutions as they have occurred in the past. You'll note however, that since WW2 there hasn't been a revolution by means of force that has succeeded. No professional military no matter how well armed the citizens are with home made bombs and guns has the ability to overwhelm such a force... unless the military looses heart.

The military is Iran and Afghanistan are good examples according to popular belief. Only other military's have the power to stop them.

Ultimately Bob, I am sure we are on the same page and want the same things... actually I am almost sure of it. The fact that we disagree is a lovely function of our educations... educations that have ensured or at least tried to ensure that our governments who represent us, do the right thing.

Dave

Yea, we may be arguing semantics. I am slightly taken aback that I should not be considered middle class having only little more than a grade 9 education.

I also don't put capitalism on a pedestal and show it an almost religious respect some do. Worked too many years for a big company in a huge industry to fall for that either. Nor do I believe, like some, that it is inextricably tied to any particular form of governance. Seems China is doing very well with it's take on capitalism. Wish I could find the commercial for the Lang and O'Leary Report, where Kevin O'Leary says words to the effect, IIRC, "I love being a communist so long as I can make a buck". Not a direct quote only as I remember it. That says it all.

Post WWII there are examples of the military losing heart and at least compromising to defuse a volatile situation. The Arab Spring syndrome and in particular Egypt even if it is only a delaying tactic. The military losing heart in Russia and backing down to Boris Yeltsin and citizen supporters. There may be more. A good part of any military is made up of middle class people and I would bet it is an uneasy feeling have to possibly kill your own civilians. I would not count on military discipline to always trump personal feelings in the rank and file.

The fact the we disagree is a function of personal view points gained through life experiences. Everyone's experience is different even if similar. The ability to discuss and disagree while still respecting the others POV is a product of up bringing. A debate is always enjoyable even if all we can do is agree to disagree.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

Dave

Yea, we may be arguing semantics. I am slightly taken aback that I should not be considered middle class having only little more than a grade 9 education.

I also don't put capitalism on a pedestal and show it an almost religious respect some do. Worked too many years for a big company in a huge industry to fall for that either. Nor do I believe, like some, that it is inextricably tied to any particular form of governance. Seems China is doing very well with it's take on capitalism. Wish I could find the commercial for the Lang and O'Leary Report, where Kevin O'Leary says words to the effect, IIRC, "I love being a communist so long as I can make a buck". Not a direct quote only as I remember it. That says it all.

Post WWII there are examples of the military losing heart and at least compromising to defuse a volatile situation. The Arab Spring syndrome and in particular Egypt even if it is only a delaying tactic. The military losing heart in Russia and backing down to Boris Yeltsin and citizen supporters. There may be more. A good part of any military is made up of middle class people and I would bet it is an uneasy feeling have to possibly kill your own civilians. I would not count on military discipline to always trump personal feelings in the rank and file.

The fact the we disagree is a function of personal view points gained through life experiences. Everyone's experience is different even if similar. The ability to discuss and disagree while still respecting the others POV is a product of up bringing. A debate is always enjoyable even if all we can do is agree to disagree.

Bob

Hey Bob - I just want to be clear about something here that I take as a give-in, and I forget to point out sometimes (ok all the time) - an "education" doesn't have to come at the end of a University.

So when you say "we disagree is a function of personal view points gained through life experiences," and I say via education - we are basically saying the exact same thing.

I am a huge fan of capitalism though I am not sure we even know what that really means anymore... I don't hold it up either because I am not sure we even know what it is and as you stated... it's corrupted as we see fit.

Thanks for the banter Bob - like I said, 99% of us all want the same thing, even though we don't always agree how we are to get there. It's too bad we so often forget the prize in light of the solution.

I see socialism simply as a system of checks and balances on both government and corporate communism. Socialism values productivity both in the public and the strong private sector that brings initiative to the society. If you put too much power into a few hands, whether they are a bunch of comrades or Koch brothers and their ilk, you end up with a cumbersome system that has no real flexibility or creativity needed to create a large middle class and a productive society.

It's not the first time I said this. And it won't be the last, but here goes:
I pay less for health + dental care than an American citizen for semi decent coverage.
And whether someone earns a lot, or a little, they all get the same level of basic care.

Let me know when the US can beat our system in terms of cost vs care. Until that time, I am not really interested in a philosophical debate about the evils of our system which does not allow its citizens to choose between not receiving care at all, or receiving it at a much higher cost.

Btw, I am not really pro socialism all the way. No single system is desirable when driven to absolutes. I just think that the plumbing that makes society go round should be run non-profit to make life better for all, instead of running it for-profit and make life better only for those who run the plumbing.