Thread: Assault weopen carnage agian?

Originally Posted by scap99

We are all born with the right to defend ourselves.
No matter the tool of the day.

Its a sad state of affairs if you have to defend yourself in your own Country.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Say it is a sad state of affairs and that is true but if teachers were armed these incidents would have different outcomes ...... if they happened at all.

Perhaps.
Though you could count on other icidents happening. Kids getting hold of the gun, accidental discharges, lost weapons in a school.
Overall you'd have different problems, not less.

Originally Posted by TrilliumLT

Its a sad state of affairs if you have to defend yourself in your own Country.

Ever heard the story of Cain and Abel?

Been happening ever since.

Originally Posted by scap99

Rights are granted by the Creator. Not subject to the whims of current political landscape, be it war or otherwise.

Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

Originally Posted by Bruno

Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

Oh NO!! Here we go!

Originally Posted by Bruno

Did he tell you personally which rights you have?

Self-evident isn't clear enough?

Well if I apply your logic this guy use his rights 26 times. Since 20 was not enough he keep going... I guess he is also part of your statement. Correct? He is not different from anyone else who born with right....

Originally Posted by scap99

I was responding to Proximus, who implied rights were dynamic rather than static.

Originally Posted by ScoutHikerDad

I don't usually get involved in these kinds of discussions, but as an actual teacher (and gun owner), I think I need to correct some misconceptions here. Frankly, I get tired of hearing simplistic, uninformed opinions about how to fix education from people who haven't been in a classroom in decades; no offense, gentlemen, it's just a touchy issue for me. I teach 90 seniors a day in a very big suburban high school (just like Columbine, really). Many are bigger (and certainly tougher) than me, which I guess is irrelevant when some nut-job brings a gun into the equation. I'm not saying I know what "the answer" is; in any case, out here in the real world these simplistic platitudes never solve ANY of our country's complex and overwhelming problems...

What I DO know is that if you arm teachers, then they are no longer trusted teachers who have earned a child's respect, but more like prison wardens. Arm teachers, and that hard-earned, often grudgingly-given cooperation will change (especially from teenagers), I guarantee you, into a type of rebellious submission based on fear. I can just hear a student saying: "What are you going to do, shoot me?"

The teacher/student relationship is a complex, ever-changing negotiation based on many subtle factors. Speaking from experience (my 1st 3 years in a very tough school), a teacher who tries to play King of the Hill and runs a class based on fear will rarely if ever be successful. Years ago, after reading (and teaching) Sue Monk Kidd's The Secret Life of Bees, I completely changed the way I manage a classroom (and deal with other people) based on a quote from that book which changed my life: "When you really need something from someone, find a way to have that person give it to you." My discipline problems have almost dropped to nothing since. Dedicated, professional teachers spend years gaining classroom management experience and honing their "reps" as the real deal. In my case (and with most teachers I know), students' grudging respect for me is based on them knowing that I am that "real deal" who knows and loves his subject, is ALWAYS honest and fair (but firm) with them, and am enthusiastically dedicated to their success. Most of my colleagues work this way, and I feel that our school's relative lack of discipline issues (in the type of school that should be overwhelmed by them!) is a direct result of that philosophy. You don't need a degree in psychology to know intuitively that a gun on my hip would negate ALL of that dynamic, and reduce it to that. gun. on. my. hip.

I am not a cop, don't try to make me one! God help me, if this ever happens, I am done teaching. I know from discussing this with my colleagues that many great, conscientious teachers would also refuse to do this. I say that as someone who is a pretty good shot, and who would (I hope) be able to perform under fire if I actually were armed-ironic, isn't it? I'm just certain it would end education as we currently know it, and change it into something I wouldn't want to be a part of...

I know this stance doesn't take us one iota closer to solving the problem of school shootings, but I just think that my favorite on-line community of well-intentioned, thoughtful, and compassionate gentlemen needs to hear from teachers how wrong-headed this line of thinking is. Like many of you, I have watched the story unfolding in horror, thinking of my own boys who used to attend the excellent (and safe?) elementary school down the street.

Thanks for indulging the long post, guys, and I hope I didn't offend. I just got my feathers ruffled about a subject that is very important to me personally. May the residents of NewTown, CT find peace and grace, if possible, this Christmas. Aaron

Those who have called for arming teachers have simply done so without any specifics of implementation. As you know, the devil is in the details. As it is now, teachers have NO CHOICE in the matter. I don't think anyone is suggesting that teachers be given no choice but to be armed. No, teachers aren't cops, but they are supposed to be CITIZENS FIRST, just like every other American, whether they be businessman, teacher, soldier or statesman. A CITIZEN, BY DEFINITION, IS ARMED. Anything less is a "subject". This does not mean you deliver lectures with an AR-15 at port arms. It means that you, like every Citizen, have the right and DUTY to maintain a means to RESPOND. This should not be a high-profile thing - on the contrary, it's much more effective and far less intrusive if the students NEVER see it, but are taught that it's an element of Citizenship, just like voting and jury duty. Just like the right and duty to vote, a Citizen has the right and duty to keep and bear arms. Not every teacher will choose to take on this level of responsibility, but some will, (such as my wife who has been teaching for 17 years, and has always had a small safe in her classroom for candy money, etc.) and all it takes to stop an active-shooter scenario is ONE responsible Citizen. In reality, my wife could have kept a full-size 1911 in that safe in her classroom for the last 17 years, and NO ONE WOULD EVER KNOW. There's no rational reason why this couldn't be a LEGAL reality.

The classroom dynamic you refer to is a direct result of this entire skewed sense of normalcy that we have now, which is a direct result of the NFA in 1938. Prior to that, kids would take their .22's to school and nobody thought anything of it. We teach 1st graders to look both ways before crossing the street because cars are an acknowledged and accepted reality, but we don't teach the safe and effective handling of firearms in schools. Why not? It's a 100 yr. old technology, and it's not all that difficult, but the shift of the population to urban centers has resulted in too many people who have been brainwashed with this stigma about firearms since 1938. This is just a complex definition of what amounts to nothing more than ignorance-based fear.

These other countries where the laws reflect the socialist thinking and vice-versa are not a good model for the U.S., but the encroachment of this sort of thinking has served to split our political landscape in half, with a divisiveness like never before. The NFA, the current political landscape and the evolution of fear and spreading misinformation and ignorance about what firearms can and can't do are just a part of the larger disassociated social sense and lack of moral values that are just pressure-cooked in the urban centers. There are still many places in the country where neighbors help each other pull stumps and build barns, and they'll defend each others' property when called upon as well. They have guns, they've always had guns, and they don't think anything much about it except when some politician tries to say that gun ownership or the availability of guns is the problem. No, PEOPLE and PARENTS are the problem, and teachers are on the front lines of dealing with that part of it.

As in my last post, there are initiatives that CAN improve security in schools that CAN work before it ever comes down to an armed teacher. These are solutions that can be developed locally, by school districts and funded by the state. (Congress can sit up there on the Hill and be as stupid and ineffectual as ever, and the President can keep his crocodile tears and socialist policies to himself.) Teachers have the ear of their administration and especially the Principal and AP's down there in their own school office much more than they have the ear of their legislators. My recommendation is for teachers to consider the fact that the "classroom tactic" of taking things away from everybody because of the abuses of the few is not the right way to solve all problems (heresy, I know). This is necessarily going to run across the grain of the typical educator culture, but that's what good corporate managers do when they're losing money and can't figure out why. They form diagonal committees that cross the cultural boundaries within their organization, recognizing that if they keep doing things the way they've always done, they're going to keep losing money the same way they have been.

This is about unshackling and empowering those with the inclination and the means to defend themselves and others, as every Citizen should, ideally.

Quick Question. You have the right to bear arms but is it a right to have the ammo?
Ill stir the pot alittle.

Originally Posted by MickR

I agree with your opinion, and without actually trying to argue with you here, as you may not have had this tidbit of news down your way, in (unintentional) support of the 'Crims will always get guns' line. Recently we had an incident here, where a man walked up to a protective service officer (They stand out the front of court houses and also act as personal protection agents for dignitaries and such amongst other things), pulled out a claw hammer and clubbed the Officer down to the ground, took the officers gun and decamped. The offender was found a kilometre away, having taken his own life. It could have been so much worse.
As a parent, I really feel for the loss of those young lives, but the focus seems to be on the tool used to take those lives, rather than the 'Tool' who took them, and what is worse still, is that the coward took his own life, denying those grieving parents any sense of justice. It makes me sick at heart that people can do this sort of thing to each other.


Mick

Yeah, hammers are used a lot in SA these days, esp in home invasions. I think you could kill less people with a hammer than a gun, though. Also, to counter my OWN argument, and also to add support to the stupid bikie law debate, I'm quite aware that bikies and otyher gangs make their OWN guns, they don't need to buy them; they manufacture them. I'd just be quite horrified and scared to think everyone in my street had a gun, and to be honest I think they townsfolk would be pretty scared to think I had a gun, I have anger management issues...