Thread: Assault weopen carnage agian?

Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

Allow me to comment on the "Marx" comment. That man had something. Communism works as an ideal, capitalism is the only thing wrong with communism.

You realize of course that America was and is based on the notion that capitalism is a good thing? Uh, so much so that many American has given his and her life in the pursuit of it right?

And just so we are clear you do know the difference between communism and socialism... uh, right? Just asking.


The system can't change, there is too much corruption in the GOP to allow that to happen. They can't even agree on a budget for crying out loud.

Uh, you do know what the GOP stands for right? The republican party... just in case.

So you are saying all of America's woes are at the end of the Republican party? Uh, the Democratic party is all good and has nothing to do with the whole budget issue then? Right! Ok... it's all on the Republicans then - as corrupt as they are.

I have had time to reflect on why Britain has the violent crime rate it does. If you put your hand on a person, who doesn't want it there, you can be arrested for assauLt.
Take that as you will.
"Take that as you will?" Take what as you will?!! You realize of course that that is illegal in America too right? Hey! Guess what!? They even call it the same thing. Assault! Who knew!!?? Surely you didn't - but that's ok... just say anything.

Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

How do you fix these social problems without removing firearms?

There are a few ways! Maybe not all as radical as removing something many American's are as passionate about as their rights given to them from their founding fathers... but you know, that's so... "back then!"

Next there needs to be free universal healthcare. The social service can refer individuals with problems to the health service to help. The community would be less divided, public unrest would be lessened.

You know there is no such thing as "free" universal healthcare... right! Anywhere! Even in Cuba! The debate in America is if American's wish to pay a private company or their government for the care they get! American's aren't at all comfortable with the notion of paying governments anything - and stating it's free will only make things worse as no American believes in anything that is free! They are hard working people who feel good about getting services for moneys rendered!

Free health care! Bah! Where I ask you? Be careful with your wording!

The huge gap between rich and poor needs closing. The housing standards for the poor are DISGUSTING. I have seen better slums in Africa, and I am not exaggerating. How can you expect people to live this way and get on in life.

All I ask is you show me the slum in America you are referring to. Take some pictures. They exist, but I want to know what you think is worse than an entire continents slum.

Americans get screwed by businesses, how can Att charge over $200 a month for my phone contract, then charge me for a phone. In England we pay £25 a month including a top of the line phone. This isn't off topic, the government doesn't give two hoots about the American people. The government needs to care first and the people will follow.

Oh and when Thatcher privatized so many of your institutions back home... based on capitalist notions I might add, those company's haven't screwed the British people? No company or industry has ever been bad to it's clients in Britten in the last ten years LOL!!??

But seriously - what plan are YOU getting that costs $200?? That's high by anyone's standards!

How can the people be expected to respect life when the police don't? I have seen police drag people from cars for taking you long to give id.

Seriously - what did you watch one episode of Cops and come to that conclusion? Have you ever been to a football game in England? I have! Leaving, the cops weren't exactly their handing out lollipops!

The kids here have few responsibilities. Yet they can drive? Most kids don't even have a job, what's that all about? I'm talking 13-14 year olds. I held a job from being 12. Good for you!

You seem like a piece loving, nice guy SRH. But being that I am not even an American, and I can, and did blow wide holes in the what I would call the judgmental dribble you are espousing - I can't even imagine how an American would feel about the things you are writing.

Gun ownership is a very passionate topic in America and one that many people are well versed on. This year at school I noted two kids who did their senior thesis on the issue.

You can't just walk into a conversation like this with a bunch of Americans debating the issue after the horrific tragedy that recently transpired and talk about how you feel... Unless you are very humble. Present facts or be humble... that or expect even non american's to evaluate everything you say negatively.

I hope that helps you - it took me a while to learn. Heck I might even be wrong.

Originally Posted by straightrazorheaven

I have begun to understand this. What Americans don't really follow though, is that you still don't have the right to kill someone.
There is something uncivilized about that concept. Every single conversation I have had with an American either in person, or on here, regarding the right to defend yourself using guns ... has ended with the American basically saying they have to do that because the country is in ruins.
Doesn't that just make you think you need to get rid of those sorry excuse of leaders? I would never arm myself against another human.
Against animals, say if I lived in BFE, or the plains in Alaska, yes I would arm myself because I am not going down to a bear.
A human is another matter, I would rather die than kill, and it saddens me that others don't feel the same.
As in the other thread, where I stated I believe proficiency in self defense is better than using a firearm, I stand by that firmly.
Take away firearms and firearms related crime will drop to almost nil. Until that is understood and adopted nothing will change.
Would you guys who have guns give them up to never have this happen again? I would give anything to prevent these atrocities.
To those who talk about bombs etc, a bomb large enough to kill 20 people would probably be spotted in the making
Somebody would have to buy a lot of "odd" things that would raise an alarm, also they have to make it, which could see the end of them too.
To Glen, Just because your rights are deeply ingrained, that doesn't mean changing them isn't a good thing. It means you will fight to keep them.
Good luck with that because eventually, if this sort of thing keeps happening, they will be changed. Eventually someone with some sense will preside over the USA and define what the right to bear arms actually means in a modern era. The bill of rights is something that really needs looking at by the politicians, and the people of America. Things change, Britain is no longer going to take the USA ... The bill of rights needs amending.

If you have the right to bear arms and create a militia, only the militia should be allowed to bear arms, they should be regulated and everybody should know who those people are.

To the people who say something along the lines of "well the killer broke the rules already, more rules won't help".
Criminalize guns. There is a long list of people who own them, where they live, the Gov't could find the firearms owners, and give them a period of grace to disarm themselves before they became fugitives. If what you say is true you would all follow the laws and give your firearms up anyway, no problem. Then the budget for the police could be shifted towards changing the philosophy of the broken part of society. There would be excess budget after firearms was criminalized since there would be lower crime rates after the initial spike.

To everybody who says this is a pipe dream or words to that effect just take a look at the UK. This was achieved. Atrocities like this happen rarely. The last being (if I am correct) the 80's.

If I made spelling errors etc, I apologise, I am tired.

A few points:

- First of all, the Bill of Rights can't be changed so easily. There can be Amendments to the Constitution that do not specifically contravene the Bill of Rights, but they can't outright-repeal those fundamental Amendments. I forget now what the legal term is for that, but trust me, the Bill of Rights Amendments can't be legislated away by Congress with a mere 2/3 majority, in the way that other Amendments are passed. I'd have to look up all the legal jargon on that - it's been awhile since I took that class...

-The courts have recognized the Right of self-defense as fundamental (if you have no Right to defend your life against someone who would take your life from you, then you have no Rights at all), so yes, in fact, we DO have the Right to use deadly force in justifiable self-defense, that MAY result in the death of the assailant. It's an important legal point that we do not "shoot to kill", we "shoot to stop" deadly or serious offenses such as murder, rape, and even theft of property in some jurisdictions. In Texas, for instance, I don't recommend breaking into somebody's barn when they aren't home, because the neighbor can still legally apply deadly force to STOP you, and you may well die from it...

-The courts have similarly ruled that the federal government cannot criminalize guns entirely. That can't be overturned, either, so criminalizing ALL guns at the Federal level is out. They think they can "restrict" some of them though, and they are wrong, but they're still going to try, and that's the constant battle here.

-The courts have ruled that Federal gun registration is illegal. For one thing, it's the first step towards confiscation, which has preceded every major state-sponsored atrocity in history. We may ALL die because of misuse of guns, but the American system says that we would rather die because we ARE free to keep and bear arms, than because we are NOT free to keep and bear arms. Sure, not every state and local jurisdiction really recognizes this properly, but that's the jist of the Founding principle involved.

-understand that this is not about numbers. How many die due to abuses of freedoms vs. how many die under an oppressive, theoretically "gun-free" system is beside the point. We choose to live OR die according to this principle of erring on the side of freedom. Whether one idea or the other can be shown to "save more lives" is irrelevant. This is also why the first Americans went to war and died for such freedom.

-the "militia" has yet to be strictly defined, but the general legal standing of a Citizen makes them a member of the standing militia, whether they realize that or not. The first purpose of the 2nd Amendment is a martial purpose - to serve as a check against tyranny. No, that doesn't mean we expect to stand off our own organized military to throw off an oppressived government, but we should have the MEANS to do so, such that the government never gets any crazy ideas. It's a strategic deterrence, if you will. As such, an individual Citizen must have the right to keep and bear any such weapon that an individual soldier would bring to bear against him. Anything less renders the Citizen militia ineffectual, and is a recipe for atrocity and oppression by the state. The government belongs to the Citizens in the U.S., and not the other way around. Sometimes government officials think that "leading" us means they are "in charge" of us, but that's not the case! They SERVE in government, by consent of the governed, within the bounds of the Constitution.

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

People in the USA have guns to protect themselves against their government? Is that it? Just ignore me, I'm being silly...

Well look at what our government has done to us. We didn't have the protection of a Bill of Rights and so when one psychopath does his lolly down in Tassie...Well you know what happened then. Thanks Jack Boot Johnny (John Howard ex PM), but has changed? Mass murders are still a rare thing here and gun crime still happens.

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Bob, does the society lose the privilege at some time if it's abused? I know that's collective punishment, a bit like taking the TV away from the entire family because one kid is watching too much (poor analogy I know) but where is that line which can be crossed for 'someone' to say "Right, that's it, you can't be trusted any more, give me the guns". I know that's a rather paternal idea, but I'm sort of playing with the idea that I'm the wise old emperor overlord chief type guy. I think if I were such an entity I would have got a bit stern with my stupid citizens by now... :-)

Yep, see rant above about Jack Boot Johnny.

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Do rights sometimes make people a little bolder and more arrogant than they should be? Sometimes do we need to show some humility?

I'm probably telling you what you have already experienced, and I know much of the above quotes were not made in a serious/argumentative way, and of course mine are not meant to be that way either, but I have to say, from my own experiences in the US, that I have never come across, a more polite, humble and helpful bunch of people (Well all except the checkout chick in a Texas Walmart who kept shouting "Pardon Me? I cain't unnerstan yoooo!" ), you could ever hope to come across. At the same time, willing to stand up for what they believe in. If it weren't so populated I'd move there just for the freedos they have that we've lost due to not being 'rights', but merely 'privileges' that, as JBJ said, "...can be taken away..." and indeed were.


Mick

P.S I'm still waiting for my postcard ya mongrel .

Carl, I want you to go hug and kiss yer lady, and thank her for moving you to the far left coast of the US, at least you have a few like minded people there in Seattle... Heaven forbid that she had been a Texan
heck be glad she wasn't from even Western WA

Seriously my friend you have some very Socialist views there, I doubt even Obama, could agree with all of them, and he is pretty far Left.
I don't think I could have answered your posts much better then Earcutter and Furcifer already have...

Originally Posted by MickR

...I have to say, from my own experiences in the US, that I have never come across, a more polite, humble and helpful bunch of people (Well all except the checkout chick in a Texas Walmart who kept shouting "Pardon Me? I cain't unnerstan yoooo!" ), you could ever hope to come across. At the same time, willing to stand up for what they believe in. If it weren't so populated I'd move there just for the freedos they have that we've lost due to not being 'rights', but merely 'privileges' that, as JBJ said, "...can be taken away..." and indeed were.


Mick...

Sir, I must say, that my time in Brisbane in 2007 was AMAZING, and I was very interested in asking the random populous about the draconian gun ban that had taken place there some years earlier. I had been horrified by the initial reports of family heirlooms being cut up and destroyed, and such wonderful craftsmanship and value gone to waste. (I find that guns and bullets are among the best investments that NEVER lose value and hedges against economic collapse that anyone can have. Australia didn't need to destory all those guns. I would have come down there, hauled them all off and held them in trust for the day when sanity returns, no problem!) I was happy to discover that most of those I spoke with had simply ignored it and tucked their property away to fight another day. Wonderful people there in Brisbane! I met a gentleman who took the time to show me around the city and described his volunteer efforts during the floods there, as well as the Maritime museum. He had a very STRONG notion of volunteerism! You really deserve SO much better from your government and I sincerely hope the people there will take concerted action to re-establish their freedom and standing in the face of their government. Trust me, there are still plenty of places in the US that are not heavily populated, and I will be living in one of those places when I retire!

Does this look too crowded for ya? I'm building my house in that valley, and there's 80 acres around it! There WILL also be a gun range and deer stands!

I am horrified about how one human being could do that to innocent children. Deranged, simply deranged!


That being said, I will try to keep it short. I have read all the posts and waited a while before I dare jump in.

1. The guy had a "personality disorder" and applied for a gun purchase and was denied. The press quoted some benign stuff about being autistic....bla...bla...bla. The guy was a psychotic and his mom, counselor, and almost in his immediate family knew it.
2. Because of the HEPA laws we allow psychopaths to be in our midst and in many of these instances it is just the lambs being led to slaughter. It amazes me that to be PC we are directed by law to allow these individuals in our midst with no restrictions.
3. We are a funny lot in America. Through "Fast and Furious" we caused the death of THOUSANDS of Mexican citizens, women and children among them, and yet we can't even get an accounting of what our government did.
4. I find it insulting that some sports personality, or other rich limousine liberal, can talk about taking everyone's rights away when they are surrounded by packing bodyguards. Why should they be the only ones afforded even a modicum of protections against scum balls?
5. Many people say that we need more "gun control" laws. Since Connecticut has one of the most stringent laws going that only means one thing, to me, and that is "gun confiscation"

We need to pray for the families and our country. We have lost our ability to call things for what they are and take action. As the male head of a household I feel it is my responsibility to protect my loved ones against invasion of my home and the safety of those I have taken the responsibility to bring into this world. I will go down fighting with little regard of my own well being to accomplish this. This is ingrained into the very fiber that makes me who I am. I have trained my wife and children about weapons and responsibility that come with owning one.

I have lived through two incidents of home invasion that would have come out very differently if I had not been prepared.


Take Care and pray for the innocent,

Richard

This thread is being closed until further notice.