Thread: Kilts!

Originally Posted by Nickelking

By clan tablecloth I meant the disparaging term used for false tartans. sorry for confusion.

Aah, like Clan Pizzahut. Gotcha!

No worries. Sometimes I'm a wee bit thick in the morning.

I googled 'clan tablecloth' to get a funny image and google asked me-

"Did you mean CLEAN tablecloth?"

Originally Posted by fpessanha

So I bumpped into this thread and I must say to all you kilt wearing dudes... Respect! indeed.

I figure they are confortable and practical at times and, with a bit of attention, you won't be showing your assets all the time or even at all. BUT one question came to mind... I decided to search for kilts on google and a lot came up. Among the results, Utilikilts came up. Cool... nice site, nice kilts, nice philosophy! It is a manly thing, indeed. In fact... I never thought that a kilt would be anything other than manly. Think Braveheart and all that stuff.

BUT... isn't there a heritage issue in the whole thing? I mean... I read through most of the posts and you lot of kilt dudes sound like you have a Scott heeritage or Welsh or Irish or something kilt-culture-related. I mean... you are mostly americans or from the british isles. For the second ones, heritage is there - you are kilt legitimate.

The first group, the americans are... well americans, therefore, from the melting pot of cultural diversity. So I take it that there is also a legitimate heritage going there. You descend from Scotts or other kilt wearing people, right? I suppose that if you were italian-american you wouldn't be wearing kilts...

So, the question is: do you think you need to have some cultural heritage or ancestry to wear a kilt? I guess it 's just a garment - a confortable one - and the Utilikilts site makes you want one and stress out the fact that the sheer existence of the male genitalia and it's very peculiar phisionomy legitimate the kilt. Hey... I want one! But I am Portuguese... sure there were Celts in Portugal. Before the Romans... and after the romans Celtic heritage vanished. So... I guess I wouldn't feel culturaly confortable in a kilt... because I am not a Scott or from Celtic ancestry.

What do you think? Do you have to be scotish/welsh/irish to wear a Kilt?

I wear a kilt because our family actually traced our name back to the first person ever to have it, a foundling in the town of Dollar, Scotland (make any sense of my screen name?). I did the appropriate research into our clan connections, and I do wear it to show pride in my heritage.

You do not have to have Celtic heritage in order to wear a kilt at all. The more I wear mine, the more I love it and they can be excellent for formal occasions. Should you do some family name research you may find that others sharing your names have been septs of a clan. You can also pick a generic tartan derived from a region, organization (such as a military branch or fraternal organization), or just a pattern you like. The chances of someone bumping into you who can decipher your tartan are extremely remote.

However, if you do wear a tartan kilt, you will have many people ask you about the meaning of your tartan.

I just recently started wearing a kilt after joining my local pipe & drum band. I have to say that I am constantly amazed by the range of reactions we get as individuals and as a group. I have had everything from women trying to feel up my kilt to individuals who seem almost personally offended that we would dare wear such a thing into public!
Once a waitress actually couldn't stop laughing as I tried to get a seat on St. Patrick's Day after we had played at every Irish bar in the city, which was quite a few!

I am the side drummer to the immediate left of the base drum.

Originally Posted by foundlingofdollar

I wear a kilt because our family actually traced our name back to the first person ever to have it, a foundling in the town of Dollar, Scotland (make any sense of my screen name?). I did the appropriate research into our clan connections, and I do wear it to show pride in my heritage.

I presume you are talking about tartan kilts here. And even then, i'd be interested to see the sources. Where would it be recorded that person 'x' from family 'y' started wearing tartan kilts on date 'z'?

Forgive my scepticism, but I live in a tourist trap area of Scotland and all too often see visitors from Clan Myazaki (for instance) come to be told a load of nonsense.

Out of interest, my mum and gran come from Dollar. My Gran still lives there. Farquason is the tartan. But I believe Castle Campbell is just outside Dollar. Perhaps that is what you are referring to?

Ok, folks... let's see what we're dealing with here, shall we?

First of all... pardon my english: it's not my mother language so bear with my spelling for a while.

Let's see if I can get some wheels turning here...

I asked to all of you that hang about free an confy with nothing restaining the jolly happiness of the boys down bellow, to all of you, who under the kilt wear... boots (or shoes, or birkenstocks...) if there is a need for cultural heritage to legitamately wear a kilt. Your answers were indeed interesting. But I've been thinking about this for a while now and there are some restraints to wearing a kilt.

1) You claim the manliness of the kilt and I utterly agree; it's manly allright and the anatomic argument makes sense - 1 point for the kilt

2) You claim that kilts attract women (for the oddity of the garment, for the confidence of the necessary attitude) - 1 point for the kilt

3) The kilt has a somewhat shaddy history and is very much a product of cultural image cristalized in the 20th century, it is a product of popular beliefs and the need for cultural identity (e.g. "I am a Scott therefore I wear a kilt..." - you can change the word Scott and replace it with whatever Celt you fancy) - culture is, in my point of view, a must have for wearing a kilt... the US is a country appart: it's so diverse that anything goes and the fact that it has a anglo-saxon heritage provides the cultural basis for legitimate kilt wearing - another point for the kilt BUT I'll subtract a point because of the cultural isue being an impediment for people of non-celtic heritage for wearing a kilt THUS - 0 points on this topic

The score is 1+1+1-1=2 (Good math, huh? )

So let's face it, I mean, Fpessanha... face it: "thou shall never be a kilted warior!"

Think with me: I am portuguese - 99% portuguese. My family is descendent of some of the oldest traditional families in the country (this is to claim not my "aristocracy" or whatever, but to explain that my cultural heritage has no celtic blood in it) and the surname I use (I have 2 names and 4 surnames...) is of italian origin (from Genova) but portuguese since the 13th or 14th century. There is not a drop of celtic blood in me! Argh! The celts were wiped out of the Iberian peninsula by the Romans! Nothing!

I cannot wear a kilt in a culturaly legitimate way! Or can I?

Now the cultural issue thikens a bit... The world is getting smaller as we speak. The fact that I am writing this here and that you will read this is suficient evidence. We have access to virtualy anything we might be fond of. Culture in a pure way does not exist. What we think about as being a cultural stereotype is a cristalized thing, is a simplification of the enormous complexities of a certain section of a certain society. We need to simplify in order to assimilate and understand what diversity is. But despite the fact that we are tolerant in principle, when it becomes a practical thing, when cultural practices take their places we all become extremely prejudicious and the use of a certain simbolic thing by someone outside of the group that claims that particular simbol as its own is very badly seen. But if comunication is established between the outsider and the group members, the odd use of that simbol is accepted IF there is respect for diversity and cultural comunication from both of the oposing cuktural forces. So... in a world of comunication and cultural acceptance this would be possible. But we live in a world that is naturaly intolerant and teritorial even in culture. We see that concerning imigrants... WE marginalize and THEY marginalize themselves and others... Sad thing, of course. But fascinating nontheless.

So... if we lived in a world inhabited exclusively by true gentlemen, ruled by tolerance and honesty, I - a full blooded portuguese man with not a drop of celtic blood in my veins - could wear a kilt. Because it's confortable, because it makes sense in a very practical way, because it looks cool. And if you'd fancy some traditional garment from my country and created by portuguese circunstances, addapted to them and also cristalized by them it would be fine... sure... I want a kilt! Sure, you say: "I want a Capote Alentejano" ( see them here: http://www.feitoria.com.pt/fotos/pro...1172616713.jpg). If the world was like The Straight Razor Place... BUT IT'S NOT!

The world is a place overpopulated by pigheaded xauvinists, intolerant bastards and stupid uncultivated idiots subject to some sort of latent rethoric that exists just because it exists... some go as far as calling it a tradition so they can coat it with cultural legitimacy. If I were in scottland and bought a kilt I would be regarded as a stupid tourist with no sense of what a Kilt is or what it represents for the scotish way of being, to the scotish ontology! And no matter how much respect I have for foreign traditions or how much I admire them I will NEVER know what it is to BE scotish. Because I am portuguese. And it works in any way possible. One is what one IS. Addaptations are just that... addaptations. And thus, simplifications - a game of rethorical arguments pro diversity and pro conservation of a tradition or cultural heritage.

Some of you american kilted men say that you don't have celtic blood in you veins. Ok... let's assume that it is true. But you are forgeting the fact that you are part of a greater heritage that is, for historical reasons, anglo-saxon. Therefore you feel inherently legitimated to wear a kilt, putting aside the need for an accent. There is confidence, of course, independence of though, the old "I don't give a f**k to what others think!" Sure... but can you think of any Italian-americans wearing kilts?!

I mean... boy! I wish I could wear a kilt, I wish I had a kilt! But there are cultural arguments that are determinant for my impossibilitation of wearing such a garment. It's too far away from what I am in cultural heritage terms...

I rest my case...

PS - feel free to PM me to ask for my address regarding the possible shipping me a kilt, free of charge. That would be the perfect way of ruining my argumentation above. And I'd be very thankfull!

'Michty me' fpessanha - you need to save your shaving arms for what they were intended. I thought I wrote long messages! Nothing wrong with much of your rhetoric though at least up to the fourth paragraph where I began to lose the will to ...Eu estou gracejando somente naturalmente!!

Lang may yer lum reek

Makar

fpessanha, Here is where I believe you are wrong, You speak of cultural limitations, yet it is not at all un comon for american women to dress in traditional Indian or traditional oriental clothing. Just because it is a cultural thing doesn't mean it can not be in style.

Perhapse in Portugal they would mock you for wearing clothing assiciated with a different culture, but in America where society and cultures are blended to the degree they are, I doubt anyone would say a word about you not being Scotish.
They might call it a skirt, but that's not a cultural thing...

If I chose to wear a Capote Alentejano in winter arount here, No one would accuse me of damaging portugese heritage, or of acting outside my culture/race, I might get a few odd looks, but nothing else would be said.

Honestly there are places here in the US where you could walk down the street in a prom dress, and people would accept you. (You might even get a date out of it)

Frankly I am of mixed heritage, including Italian, and if I chose to wear a kilt, no one would question it.


Your argument about culture almost implies that because someone is scottish they should wear a kilt instead of common western fashions.

Should native americans be limited to feathers and buckskin loin cloths?

My suggestion to you is to buy an inexpensive kilt, go regimental, and have a little fun with it. If a cute girl asks you what you have under it, just smile and tell her there's only one way to find out.

I agree, if you want to do it, do it! I've worn a fez to a wedding.

Don't wory about heritage or the like if you want to wear a kilt, but if you're already worried about how to explain why you're wearing one it may not be for you.

Ah... America! Land of the free and home of the brave!

I trully apreciate your words... very wise and state quite clearly my point: the ethnic and cultural diversity of the american ontology (if I might put it this way) is the starting point of all that is... well... deverse, really! Plus, you have the anglo-saxon heritage. And that's a good thing when kilts are concerned.
Of course I don't believe that scotts should be confined to kilts or native americans confined to feathers... and quite frankly... neither do you. But you sure got my point!

I have to apologize for such a long post, but I do tend to be a bit prolific. Sorry... and hey, Nakar, I apreciate the portuguese writing thing. Very cool! Thanks for apreciating my culture and my language.

I would like to have a kilt, sure. And I found some very inexpensive ones on the web. But the arguments I stated were not to raise the question of wether I am a man for a kilt or not. It's a personal decision, sure. But there are other things involved... not quite sure if cultural limitations is a proper expression. Rather call it a cultural issue or even a cultural frontier... a frontier ment to be crossed (into the great unknown of regimental kilting!).

But I have to tell you something, my american friends: you are a lucky nation when it concerns culture. You can get away with anything!