Thread: The Shave Den

Originally Posted by azjoe

The younger generations seem to believe that whatever the computer does legitimizes something happening that offends the customer.

I would counter that some of the older generation (hey! I'm in between OK? ) find it convenient to explain a problem they have by blaming the younger generation for an over-reliance on computers in the workplace. [Need a tongue-in-cheek icon for this!]

We've already established computers only do what the users instruct them to do. Therefore unless the operator is a complete moron, there is always a way to override a system through human intervention.

So what have we got left? I'm suggesting that 'the yoof' are not helpless in the midst of a computer-controlled workplace. They may find it useful to give that impression, but in my experience mostly it's down to people not giving a £$%^. Think about it, even when there's no computer to blame, the creeping tide of the lackadaisical approach in the service sector seems to be continuing.

Back on topic, sparky was apologising for the annoyance caused. Stating that it is an automated system is beside the point. Someone at TSD decided that it would be a good idea to send a missive around and took action. In my experience, some customers react well to such missives, some aren't bothered either way and ignore it, and some are infuriated by it. So much for "the customer is always right". Which customer are we talking about here?

A year ago I booked some flights to USA on my credit card. Expedia took the booking, then almost immediately I got a call through from my bank, asking to confirm the spend. I was impressed at their speed and efficiency. Then an hour later I got an email from Expedia saying my booking had not been completed due to a security issue. It took me a day to sort out the mess, calling my bank and Expedia alternately. It was a big inconvenience and I began to rant about relying on automated computer systems like a true luddite. Then I got to thinking... OK, I was pissed off at the unexpected effort I had to go through to sort this out, I was annoyed that I was on the end of an unthinking and inflexible system where no-one was going to offer me the benefits of human/intelligent intervention. But actually, I'd much rather my bank has an effective anti-fraud and ID-theft policy in place which is tweaked to be slightly over-cautious and causes me some inconvenience than the alternative, which risks my account being cleaned out because the bank cannot afford to employ an army of trained-up operatives eyeballing every single transaction and making a judgment call on whether it was suspect or not.

So, how would I feel if I received an unsolicited mail from a forum asking if I was still active compared to finding one day that my user account had been deleted due to my being inactive for 6 months? I've been in both situations. I therefore have no problem with receiving that sort of communication.

Computer systems are dumb and rigid, but they can speed things up. Some people on the receiving end will hate it, others will be glad for it. Some of those responsible for working with such systems might be lazy-arsed workshy layabouts, and some will be truly customer-focused. But let's not start tarring the younger generations with the same brush just because we've had some bad experiences amongst the good. That's just too easy, right?

Originally Posted by majurey

<snip> I'm suggesting that 'the yoof' are not helpless in the midst of a computer-controlled workplace. They may find it useful to give that impression, but in my experience mostly it's down to people not giving a £$%^. Think about it, even when there's no computer to blame, the creeping tide of the lackadaisical approach in the service sector seems to be continuing.

I agree... I like to think of it as a 'lack of responsibility' attitude.

I grew up in a culture where 'solving the problem' was expected... specifically, I was raised on a farm. If a tractor or implement broke down you fixed it with whatever you had at hand or solved the problem another way... borrowing from a neighbor, whatever. If it rained and delayed your progress you worked doubly hard to make it up when the weather cleared. But shrugging it off was not an option. In a sense, we were our own customer. If we lacked the responsibility to take action, we starved.

To put myself through college, I bought a combine and cut grain for other farmers... now I had customers other than myself. Not much changed... I still was making a 'customer' happy (if at all possible) using the tools available. But I learned a lot of other lessons that proved invaluable. One that has guided me to much success was capitalizing on the fact that the very smallest of customers often carry a very influential voice. Frequently they're very well connected and when treated well they will recommend you over the competition every time... likewise, if they're mistreated they can spread a lot of negatives very quickly. Another one is that it doesn't much matter whether the problem is big or little... ignoring it usually results in a lost customer.

When I graduated from college (electrical engineer) I moved from the farm and went into the emerging field of computers and spent the next 30+ years building custom hardware/software/systems. I never lost sight of the ethics I grew up with... if you take care of your customers and 'do the right thing' by them, they will continue to be your customer. Lots of my peers often took the approach that they had things to sell... take it or leave it. I never did... I always focused on solving the customer's problem... after all that's ultimately what they want. If I could do that with off-the-shelf parts, I did... if not, I built them. I would only hire people with that expectation... I used to tell prospective employees their mission was to be a jack of all trades and a master of whatever they needed to be at the time... a prostitute of sorts... giving the customer whatever they wanted for a competitive price. I always had more business than I could handle.

What I find saddening about many of our youngest generation of workers is they don't have a realistic vendor/customer concept. Most grew up buying from the internet and only experienced a 'we have this to sell... you can buy it or not' environment. Most of them never experienced the entrepreneurial things the kids of preceding generations had to learn from... eg, a paper route, mowing lawns, baby sitting, bagging groceries, etc. (The one exception are the kids that work for tips... eg, waitresses... but even they seem to have a different view anymore... like the tip is expected rather than earned.) Is it any wonder kids entering the workforce don't understand the responsibilities from the vendor's perspective? When they get a job and have to represent a vendor position it shouldn't be a surprise they don't feel any responsibility to 'do the right thing'. Many actually take the opposite role... you're buying from me and I get to set the rules (just like they experienced with their internet buying). And when something goes wrong they seem to believe they can just tell the customer 'that's the way it is' or give the customer an excuse that blames something/someone else for their inability to solve the problem... they seem to have no inkling that responding that way doesn't make everything ok in the eyes of the customer!!. What's missing is their expectation that THEY have to take initiative to solve the problem with the tools they have at hand instead of dismissing it with the proverbial 'so what' shrug.

Now... I'm not so naive as to believe that this is all the kids fault. Stating that they seem to mostly act that way assigns no blame for fault... it simply states an observation. If we want to look at why and determine fault, well, that's a complex issue that deals with a lot of technical, cultural, and social issues... you know, all the things that affect us all, young or old. But don't get me started down that road...

Originally Posted by majurey

Back on topic, sparky was apologising for the annoyance caused. Stating that it is an automated system is beside the point. Someone at TSD decided that it would be a good idea to send a missive around and took action. In my experience, some customers react well to such missives, some aren't bothered either way and ignore it, and some are infuriated by it. So much for "the customer is always right". Which customer are we talking about here?

All of them! Almost everything we do in life elicits all three of the responses you mention from the people surrounding the situation... positive, apathy, and negative. As planners and implementors we can choose to anticipate and plan ahead for the various responses, or not. If we choose not, then we leave the people involved stranded to deal with everything on a case by case basis. That is fine as long as it's truly dealt with... but "computer does that automatically" is not dealing with it... that's just a cop out and will almost never be a satisfying response to a customer.

Originally Posted by majurey

Computer systems are dumb and rigid, but they can speed things up.

Certainly computers are rigid... they only do what they're programmed to do. But the computer is only part of the overall "system"... the overall system includes all of the inputs and outputs, the faults, the human actions and over rides, etc. The person designing the system ultimately decides how "rigid" the system will be. A customer interacts with the "system", not just the computer... to think of it in any other sense is an injustice to both the computer and the customer.

Originally Posted by majurey

Some of those responsible for working with such systems might be lazy-arsed workshy layabouts, and some will be truly customer-focused. But let's not start tarring the younger generations with the same brush just because we've had some bad experiences amongst the good. That's just too easy, right?

No, I think it's exactly that easy. As a customer I usually have an expectation (be it right or wrong) of what should happen... when it happens mostly as expected I give the experience an average rating. If I'm much more satisfied than anticipated, then it's excellent... and if less than anticipated, then I'm malcontent. When I'm malcontent I don't necessarily mind hearing why my expectations weren't met... but the explanation, by itself, seldom resolves anything for me. As a malcontent I want at the very least to hear that someone will be investigating the problem and fix it so it hopefully doesn't happen again. I still contend that, on average, our younger generations are less motivated to do that than our older generations.

I understand you think that's not a politically correct thing to say. Well, I'm not a big supporter of being "politically correct"... I think one needs to call a spade a spade as they see it. If the issue I have is with a particular group... be it young, old, white, black, gay, straight, whatever... then that's the way I see it. If I'm the only one that sees it that way, then I need to know that so I can recalibrate my expectations. But if many people are seeing it the way I do, then maybe the group needs to accept reality and take action to recalibrate how they're being perceived by others. The problem in our society today is that we're discouraging people from voicing their opinions by telling them that doing so isn't politically correct. If we can't openly talk and write about our likes, dislikes, feelings, biases and bigotries how will we (and those around us... particularly our children) learn about our culture? How can we possibly learn and evolve as a society if we stifle ourselves into silence because the language and topics we've discussed for centuries are now considered taboo and hence no longer PC?

Originally Posted by azjoe

No, I think it's exactly that easy. [...] I still contend that, on average, our younger generations are less motivated to do that than our older generations.

OK, joe. I think we do basically agree here. What you said above is also what I believe. On average being the important words for me. Being a bit of a pedant I took your first statement "The younger generations seem to believe" probably a little too literally. I'll concede that it appears the younger generation, on average, are less imbued with the service ethic, or less interested in resolving things.

But I do also see plenty of younger workers whose principles and work ethic are admirably high. Higher than mine when I was fresh out of college. I like to view that optimistically.

As for political correctness, believe it or not I'm with you on that. I hate what it does to our language (I've been in the publishing industry my whole career), and I hate the way total bigots (usually in the form of politicians, but not always ) make use of this bland politically correct language to hide behind. And those who are honest enough to speak their minds are battered with being un-PC. It has reached McCarthy-esque proportions in my opinion. Although reading forthright opinions might offend, I'd far rather read, say, GW's provocative posts ( ) than some bland, PC opinion that tells me nothing of what that person really thinks. So I guess we agree on that too .

Oops! Sorry!

You know it was because of this thread that I stopped posting here.
I am sure that is fine with you, I know you don’t need my business here.

Being a Moderator of The Shave Den I let everyone have their fun with this and left it alone.

Until yesterday when a friend of mine sent me a FWD of an email form SRP and do you know what it said?

.
Hello, ……….!
We've noticed that you've not been active on Straight Razor Place Forums for quite some time now, and we miss you!


Could we not tempt you back?


If you don't remember your password, you can request it here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/fo....php?do=lostpw
We hope to see you soon


Kindest Regards
Straight Razor Place Forums
http://straightrazorpalace.com/

All I have to say is thanks for the mud slinging but it is kind of like the pot calling the pot a pot.

Hahahaha gentlemen. It does seem that there has been a slipup with the forum settings.

Humble pie anyone?

Wow, PERSONALLY (strictly personally), I think this thread was just ridiculous. I mean, good Lord, I'm a member on about 7 different forums and I can hardly keep up with them. I receive emails like this from most of them, and I find it kind of nice to remember what I'm a member of!

It's just an email. It's not desperation. It's not rude. I would not, in any way, be offended or think it out of character, to receive one from SRP.

If you receive one of these, just click "delete" and move on. Or opt out of receiving emails from admins. Seems just a bit oversensitive, though.

Originally Posted by Mottern Man

All I have to say is thanks for the mud slinging but it is kind of like the pot calling the pot a pot.

That's rich.

It's easy to overlook that this sort of thing might happen in the future when one decides to use any kind of web automation, especially with forums. I don't assume that Mottern Man's forwarded email is true, but it wouldn't surprise me at all it if is and I wouldn't blame anyone either.

Was it Abe Lincoln who said, "We should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it." ? I should heed those words before I preach it to others though...

can't wait to see the comeback strategy from here.

Gentlemen we're now looking into this. If we do have this feature on we didn't know. We're going to see if we can turn it off.