Thread: Clarification - Kamisori Razors

Originally Posted by gfoster

Say what you want, but my respect for kamisori in general (and amy in specific) went up a notch or two after reading this even if it seems like their blades aren't quite there yet. If I were running a company that's the kind of response I'd want to see my people make as well.

I really believe they are trying to make a good product and even if they're not all the way there yet they'll keep taking steps to improve. We called that "kaizen" when I worked at Toyota (constant incremental improvement). I'll take that approach any day.

-- Gary F.

I'm in agreement with you. These razors had received some negative feedback in the past, and for Amy to come in straight from the company and lay it on the line says a lot. She believes in the product, and donated the product to be evaluated -- which is a lot more than other companies have done.

I feel safe in saying Bill's a perfectionist -- it shows in his work, and to achieve a reputation like his it has to be. And if Bill says the razor honed up in about 20 minutes and delivers an acceptable shave, that says a LOT about the quality of the product. He's going to try to fine-tune the razor a bit more, which to me says he thinks he might be able to get it a little better.

Plus, we have two other guys to hear back from yet!

I'm not knocking anyone when I say this.

I think Bill gave a fair assessment. 1) he thinks it's better than the earlier razors from them 2) he sees room for improvement 3) he feels, based on his experience with knives and razors, that it's not of a quality to demand the price they put on it. etc. etc. etc.

I feel Amy is sincere in coming here and I commend her for it. I also like her willingly receiving Bill's constructive criticism.

Now for the nitty gritty part. I expect some peoples dander to get ruffed on this so be forewarned. I'm just being straight and to the point as how I see it. If it offends anyone I offer my apologies in advance. Please try to see my point and not get blinded by offense. Thanks:

1) If Amy were a man would you be so quick to "stroke" her to lessen the "offense" of Bill's honest review? Personally I think Bill's review was pretty positive but it also let me know the razors aren't quite up to snuff yet for the pricing. I wouldn't buy a mediocre razor for $80.00 just because the company has made some improvements so far.

Amy appears sincere and if her company is as sincere as she is I'd hope they'd take all the comments that go to the heart of their razor engineering and make a few corrections. They're getting "FREE" product testing from some really good straight razor veterans here. They only have to provide 3 razors at cost plus shipping. If I were a major company I'd definitely advantage of this.

2) Like some others have said, there are still 2 other opinions out there, so there's no hurry for anyone to form opinions or positives/negatives. The short time I've been on here has let me know that I can certainly depend on Bill and Lynn for an honest review. Bill gave some nice technical points for Amy to take to her designers. I'm looking forward what Lynn and Randy have to say.

If Amy and her company are truly interested in improving their performance, and I believe they are since they recognize the impact and importance of the members of this forum, then they won't take offense at the truth and they won't run hide if the truth isn't 100% favorable to them.

I think, and hope, that Amy and her company will come back for a round 2 after all this is done. I don't think she needs excessive stroking just because there were some negative points in the first review and I don't see why she'd take offense at any of this.

I'll take a swing at that.

First, I don't think I was "stroking" Amy anymore or any less than I would anyone else be they man, woman or goat. My comments were mainly to point out that while she could have taken the negativity in Bill's review and got mad, she instead took it "like a man" so to speak and will take the constructive criticism to heart.

We bemoan the lack of common courtesy in one thread and then question it when it exists in another thread. That's confusing.

Was Bill's review a glowing endorsement? No... and I wouldn't buy one for my first razor based upon what he's said. In fact, I have a razor coming from eBay, a razor coming from Gary and a starter Dovo coming from Tony. I suspect it will take me a good long time to understand the intricacies of them enough to feel comfortable with honing and maintenance and the last thing I want right now is a razor that, while it may be much better than previous models is still needing some work. However, instead of going past them now when I see them and thinking "ok the guys at SRP told me those kamisoris are junk" and never looking at them again I'll now think "ok, those aren't the best razors yet but the company seems to be honestly working on them and I'll keep my eye out." Maybe by the time I know what I'm doing kamisori will too

I think Bill's review was great. It was honest, it was straight from the shoulder and it neither tried to be too nice nor too mean. He pointed out honest flaws (in his opinion) or areas that needed further improvement. Amy responded in kind and in this day and age taking your lumps and saying "Hey, thanks for the constructive criticism and while I was hoping for better I'll take what I get" is rare enough to deserve an honest bit of praise whether you are a pointer or a setter. Especially since a couple of people were thinking it might all be a bait-and-switch or that Amy might have less than honorable intentions.

None of it has anything to do with a small matter of plumbing.

-- Gary F.

Originally Posted by gfoster

I'll take a swing at that.
We bemoan the lack of common courtesy in one thread and then question it when it exists in another thread. That's confusing.

I'm not questioning courtesy nor do I bemoan the lack of it. There's a difference between courtesy and repeated stroking. For the record, it just seems to me that everyone is quick to compliment and "fear we have offended" and it's only for this thread. As I stated I don't see why everyone's so worried about that just on this particular thread.

This is exactly why I asked everyone to see my point and not be blinded by offense. To discuss and not "take a swing at" .

Glen F

Originally Posted by gfoster

We bemoan the lack of common courtesy in one thread and then question it when it exists in another thread. That's confusing.

That was driving. This is shaving for Pete's sake! Can we really afford not to be ruthless?!

Originally Posted by gfoster

I think Bill's review was great. It was honest, it was straight from the shoulder and it neither tried to be too nice nor too mean. He pointed out honest flaws (in his opinion) or areas that needed further improvement. Amy responded in kind and in this day and age taking your lumps and saying "Hey, thanks for the constructive criticism and while I was hoping for better I'll take what I get" is rare enough to deserve an honest bit of praise whether you are a pointer or a setter.

Exactly. My reading was the same, one of honesty and directness. I believe that under the circumstances that is the most honourable response and it appears to have been appreciated for exactly that.

Originally Posted by FUD

For the record, it just seems to me that everyone is quick to compliment and "fear we have offended". As I stated I don't see why everyone's so worried about that just on this particular thread.

Considering how people can be misread due to the limitations of the print medium, I think it's better to err on the side of politeness and it's one of the things I appreciate about this place ... Then again, I'm a Canadian so that shouldn't be surprising. Sorry.

X

If you read Bill's review and have looked at any new, sub $70 you will find many if his negatives apply to them as well. Of all the razors in this catagory I only found one I was willing to sell myself. Most of the Dovo, Conk, Fromm, Timor, H&R razors in this price range will ave the so-so pins, the patent leather black plastic scales and the plastic box. The Kamisori is right in the norm here for the price. Bill was unhappy they were not shave ready either. Even a $150 TI is a gamble in the shave ready department. Good honest review and no surprises fior a razor likely made by Dovo anyway.

I am curious as to the degree of unsharpness. The newest Fromm razor I tried late last yeat would not pass the thuimbnail test out of the box. The identical new Timors were similar. I spent twice as much time honing them as I did my original Fromm razors or the Dovos I used starting in December. For a beginner this would be a big deal. Getting a close to shave ready razor would allow a beginner with a pasted strop of a Norton to pretty quickly have good results. Getting razors like I did would lead one down a path of frustration with pasted strops and would require some real honing action.

To me Bill's review was no more negative to Kamisori than a review of any sub $70 new razor would be to it's makers. To me it seems a typical $60 razor.

Tony

I have to agree with those that say basically the quality is commensurate with the price of the razor. I think that's the bottom line here. Today I just received a new razor a TI frameback (new in the box). What I immediately noticed is that the TI seal which is impressed into the steel on every TI I have was absent. They apparently changed to some very poor quality script that just says the company name and made in france which is mostly unreadable. The usual gold leaf on the blade is smudged and the razor is not shave ready and this is a $200 razor. At least the pins are straight.

So I think we have to evaluate the merits of the kamisori relative to the price.

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

To me Bill's review was no more negative to Kamisori than a review of any sub $70 new razor would be to it's makers. To me it seems a typical $60 razor.

This is a great summation... however it's not being marketed as a $60 razor, it's being marketed as an $80 razor. Does that $20 make that big of a difference (not a rhetorical question, I really honestly don't know if it does and am asking).

-- Gary F.

Gary,
I was refering more to the black handle/spine version which Bill did not review. That version would be identical to most of the Dovo contract razors. The white one seems to have a little nicer cosmetics.

As for the TI Frameback, many of the newer TI razors have the etched instead of stamped marking on the tang now. I have about 15 TIs of all vintages and about equal numbers with stamping and etching on the tang.

Tony

Originally Posted by gfoster

.. however it's not being marketed as a $60 razor, it's being marketed as an $80 razor.

-- Gary F.

Correction It's being marketed as a $100.00 razor that's ONSALE at $80.00 with SOME retailers buying bulk and offering "even better deals", quotes intended.