Thread: Pressure!

Yeah, sure. But I'm not repeating anything you've already said and acting like it's new information. This is why I had to repeat myself.

You had to repeat yourself because you simply kept digging a deeper hole.. Again your doing, not any of ours

Many people find Narrow hones more comfortable to hone with some find smaller hand held even better, I haven't ever said they are wrong or it is a myth that is simply YMMV

Some hones I own are narrow some are wide.. You have to adjust the stroke to fit,,

But if you say, like you did and then accused myself and others of saying that one is better or more advantageous, then expect a negative response


To be absolutely clear I never said a Wide hone is advantageous (Other then in a very flat edge as noted separately post #35)

I said it is a MYTH that using a narrow hone is advantageous to using a wide hone and then stated clearly that there is no difference nor advantage to either..

Everything else was your doing, and your perception

this is surely a hot topic, and I don't want to get in the way of some heated discussion, just go into more detail:

With the risk of beeing ignorant of things said, or threads referred to, could someone explain the mentioned Gymnastics in more detail ? The picture drawn in a previous post is the same I visualize for the concave side of a warped blade, and I don't see what kind of motion that would allow contact between the hone and the middle part of the blade (regardless of hone width).

How does the heel-forward stroke circumvent this? Is the gymnastics relying on applying pressure to the middle point of the blade, flexing it until full contact is achieved? I have no problem seeing how the ordinary sweeping and rolling strokes can be transferred to a narrower part of the hone, but which technique do you use for the concave blade? Can you keep the bevel width even?

I'm sure there are many opinions on this, and I'm curious to hear from the experienced honers what kind of strokes/pressure applications/tricks that may be used.

Best,

Sedell

Originally Posted by Sedell

this is surely a hot topic, and I don't want to get in the way of some heated discussion, just go into more detail:

With the risk of beeing ignorant of things said, or threads referred to, could someone explain the mentioned Gymnastics in more detail ? The picture drawn in a previous post is the same I visualize for the concave side of a warped blade, and I don't see what kind of motion that would allow contact between the hone and the middle part of the blade (regardless of hone width).

How does the heel-forward stroke circumvent this? Is the gymnastics relying on applying pressure to the middle point of the blade, flexing it until full contact is achieved? I have no problem seeing how the ordinary sweeping and rolling strokes can be transferred to a narrower part of the hone, but which technique do you use for the concave blade? Can you keep the bevel width even?

I'm sure there are many opinions on this, and I'm curious to hear from the experienced honers what kind of strokes/pressure applications/tricks that may be used.

Best,

Sedell

We remove the frown with our 1k stone, and set the bevel. If the razor has a serious flaw, get another one from an auction that looks decent, set the bevel and proceed. Costs less than buying stones and then cutting them.
For general information about honing, you can check the SRP wiki, Category:Honing - Straight Razor Place Library

Instead of using a narrow stone you can also use a scythe stone. It fits better on the illustration above (just saying, don't try it, especially on actual razors)

Originally Posted by eKretz

There's no myth involved, for crying out loud. A razor with a concave bevel will in my opinion be honed faster and easier on a narrow stone.

This is IMHO at the heart of the disagreement: how to hone a frowning blade. A frown can be due to 2 causes. The first one being warpage. In that case you can use wide or narrow hones as the bevel will most likely be in full contact with the hone when the blade is lying on its convex side. If however the concave i.e. frowning bevel is the result of poor honing previously you might need a narrow hone to sharpen the part of the bevel inside the frown. However, I think most of us would not accept a frown due to poor honing and reset the bevel on a coarser hone before moving up the grit ladder to take the edge to shave readiness.

Originally Posted by eKretz

Can't explain it much clearer than this:

As you can see, there is no physically possible magic or gymnastical stroke that will let you use only the marked off narrow bit of the wide stone.

I also expected these drawings & they show your premise is fundamentally flawed. There are no warped razors that are so bad that they only contact 2 such small points on a wide stone. If any existed they should be melted down for a new start.

Warped razors will always have spine wear that levels the warp giving a far less radical arc to deal with. Once that bevel is set it is simply a matter of folowing the spine, wide or narrow hone, doesn't matter.

Argue for your limitations & you stay limited. I too have a bunch of narrow hones that I used to use when I believed as you do. They now make good slurry stones.

Years ago, when I first started honing, I to thought that a narrow hone would solve the problem of a warped edge. I soon found out that it would not. What I found was that a rounded side of a hone/stone or a piece of sandpaper wrapped around a dowel/broomstick/pipe worked much better!. Then I realized that my tools would not be available to the end user to touch up the edge.. Soooo...a blade with a warped edge is now just a piece of trash to me. I will not impose it upon anyone else, it is defective.

Just my 2¢


To the OP....It sounds like you have a blade that has been ground unevenly along the edge. It has a "fat" spot near the edge. The 2 solutions are to take it to a grinder and grind down the "fat" spot or keep honing on the coarse grit until the bevel is fully formed. This will take some time so use pressure until it is done. The last option is the most realistic

Yes, the problem with the drawing is, no razor is that warped on the concave side.

Honing with one inch of a full stone from the edge, allows the razor heel to fall off the stone, by a few thousandths and keep the rest of the razor flat on the 1 inch of stone.

As said, if the razor is that warped, it is no longer a usable razor.

I know, you noted the drawing was exaggerated… and that is the problem. That does not happen in the real world, and a razor honed in an X pattern using an inch or 1.5 inches of stone near the heel edge, will easily remain flat on the stone with the heel hanging off the edge.

To hone the other (Convex) side, a bit of “Gymnastics”, ever so slightly rocking the blade, while doing an X stroke, keeping the contact point in the center of the 1 inch of stone, will keep the blade flat on the hone.

If you lay a flat edge on the spine, to see how much warp the spine has, a few thousands of an inch… that is how much you need to rock, to keep the concave side of blade flat on the stone. A human hair is 2-6 thousandths of an inch thick.

Really, just visualizing the point of contact on the stone is enough to cause your hands to “rock” enough to keep the blade flat on the stone. Ink on the bevel will tell you quickly when you get the right amount of movement, less is more.

Thanks for clarifying!

So, if I understand you right, for a slightly warped razor, you hone the concave side until it lays flat on the hone, with contact all along the edge (maybe up to a thousand of an inch or so). Thus giving more attention to heel and toe.

This is how I've done it for the warped blade I have in front of me now.

I got the impression that there was more secrets hidden in the mentioned gymnastics.

Best,

Sedell

Originally Posted by Sedell

So, if I understand you right, for a slightly warped razor, you hone the concave side until it lays flat on the hone, with contact all along the edge (maybe up to a thousand of an inch or so).

That statement kinda gives me the impression that you are "Honing" the side of the razor to death creating huge spine wear and bevel wear to "Even up" the warp ...

That works but is unnecessary and can be avoided by using the various strokes we have been talking about

Rocking/Rolling X strokes
Heel Forward X stoke
Heel Forward Swooping X strokes

And the "Gymnastic" combinations of all the above combined with Tape

I also could be interpreting your post incorrectly