Thread: Shapton 16k, mixed grit??

I am at the TX meet-up this week. I have not heard from shapton yet but I will endeavor to call them next week to ask about this.

Personally, I think this mixed concept is highly unlikely, but I will do my best to get to the bottom of it.

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I also e-mailed Dictum and received the following:

"This stone has a mixture of different grits starting from 6000 to 20 000. Which gave on average 16 000. The other stones are just made of one grit."

..... .....

But thanks for trying to get to the bottom of it.

I don't think it's very likely either. Is Shapton actually homogenous to within +/- .01 micron? I have doubts. I'm sure if someone really had the mind to they could find a way to make it happen. I mean we put someone on the moon, we can find a way to sift grit particulate matter better than we were before. I'm also sure they don't because who's got both the technology and the interest required to dissect their stones to the degree required to confirm what the average grit rating is in any of their stones?

Did a tool & sharpening stone wholesaler actually do just that? No. Did they get a behind the scenes look at Shapton's operation and obtain information that could undermine the foundation on which Shapton has built their name? I don't think so.

If you take 6,000 grit and 20,000 grit, the average is 13K for starters. And the edge produced is more likely to favor 6K than 20. So you'd be looking at a 10K edge with errant 6K-ish scratches, and nothing resembling a 16K stone to my way of thinking.

I think it's more likely that whoever wrote the script for their site just screwed the pooch. Copied the information for the Weiwei 10K and pasted it under the Shapton brand by mistake, or wrote it after having a few too many drinks on a lunch break.

What Marshal said has a good probability of being correct I believe. There's a chart, maybe in the SRP Wiki, that shows how the grit varies in at least some synthetic stones. IOW there may be 0.1% particles coarser than the nominal size, and 2% finer. Something like that.

What we need to remember is that engineers designed these stones to do certain things even if we don't always know what criteria they used. For example, the white Shapton HR Glass stones were designed to cut the Lie-Nielsen stainless plane steels if my memory doesn't fail me. that means sharp abrasive that releases easily. Maybe that isn't the best for razors and fine carbon knives, so they also began producing the grey HC Glass series.

But in any case the binder, grit distribution, grit shape, etc were likely considered when designing the stone for a specific application.

Cheers, Steve

I used a 16K Shapton Glass for quite some time and the scratch patterns were 100% uniform and definitely finer than 12K.

Hopefully this notion will be put to bed soon.

I just know my 16K Shapton Glass does an amazing job when used correctly with very little to no pressure with the hone not soaked in water but I just use my water & Ballistol mix to spray on it.
What it's makeup is I just don't care. It is a fast cutting hone that needs to be lapped more often than many hones. As to why the 10K hone costs more in some areas I don't have a clue.

Slawman

I finally have made progress on this. Shapton USA's contact link on their website has been having problems so that is why they did not get back to me sooner. I called them today and I explained the question that has arisen here.

According to the rep I spoke with, what THEY sell is not of mixed grit. The hones are made in Japan and they cannot guarantee that such a mixed grit hone does not exist but they do not sell one, nor are they aware of one.

Harrelson Stanley is supposed to call me some time in the next day or so, possibly to elaborate on this more. I will relay whatever I learn from him.

OK, I just got off the phone with Harrelson. We had a very nice conversation. I certainly would like to spend a LOT more time speaking with him.

Here are the points salient to this thread.

1. He says that the Shapton company's grits are accurate to within 10% plus or minus the identified grit size. This actually is a very high tolerance level given the sizes involved, and in fact they only developed the technology to more accurately assess grit sizes about 8 years ago.

2. Harrelson is not aware of any Shapton hone being comprised of any mixed grits, and he has worked with the Shapton company for a couple of decades.

3. Because he only is responsible for Shapton in the US, he cannot speak to, nor speculate on, the claims made by any European vendor, including Dictum. Regardless, please take note of point #2.

Originally Posted by Utopian

OK, I just got off the phone with Harrelson. We had a very nice conversation. I certainly would like to spend a LOT more time speaking with him.

Here are the points salient to this thread.

1. He says that the Shapton company's grits are accurate to within 10% plus or minus the identified grit size. This actually is a very high tolerance level given the sizes involved, and in fact they only developed the technology to more accurately assess grit sizes about 8 years ago.

2. Harrelson is not aware of any Shapton hone being comprised of any mixed grits, and he has worked with the Shapton company for a couple of decades.

3. Because he only is responsible for Shapton in the US, he cannot speak to, nor speculate on, the claims made by any European vendor, including Dictum. Regardless, please take note of point #2.

The consistency of the Shaptons is why So from Japan Tool has always recommended them for razors. He told me that years ago. Never thought to mention it here.

Originally Posted by Utopian

OK, I just got off the phone with Harrelson. We had a very nice conversation. I certainly would like to spend a LOT more time speaking with him.

Here are the points salient to this thread.

1. He says that the Shapton company's grits are accurate to within 10% plus or minus the identified grit size. This actually is a very high tolerance level given the sizes involved, and in fact they only developed the technology to more accurately assess grit sizes about 8 years ago.

2. Harrelson is not aware of any Shapton hone being comprised of any mixed grits, and he has worked with the Shapton company for a couple of decades.

3. Because he only is responsible for Shapton in the US, he cannot speak to, nor speculate on, the claims made by any European vendor, including Dictum. Regardless, please take note of point #2.

So if I'm interpreting that right, the grit of a 16K hone (.92 Micron) lies between 1.01 and .83? Which is much tighter than the proposed combination of 2.45 Micron (6000 grit) and .75 micron (rough estimation of what 20K would be since I couldn't easily find a chart with that in microns as well) used to comprise a Shapton 16K according to some retailers.

Kind of cool that they not only responded, but also got you in touch which a fellow that had quite a lot of tenure there.