Thread: Naniwa 12k vs Sigma 13k

If I may, ragamuffin, you could go with Nortons. 220/1000, 4000/8000, and a Naniwa 12000. Save money and have a consistant set to last forever. Yes, bevel setting to the strop. A DMT 325 to hone chips out and flatten the stones and you are set. Learn on these, and experiment on naturals, etc later. JMHO

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Don't you think that the 1k-6k gap is too big? The sigma stones are really fast, but they abrade quickly. A stone between them will actually save you money is my opinion.

The sigma power IIs abrade quickly, but the ceramics do not. At least not the two stones you'd use the most, the 6k and the 13k.

I just tried the sigma 13k. I don't have the 12k SS, but I
do have the 8k SS.

The sigma is a nice finishing stone that works quickly. It
is a medium hard stone as far as I can judge. It gives a
very good mirror finish. The stone looks like a natural stone.
The stone feels light for its size. It needs a very short soak.
It's definitely finer than the 8k SS. It does not load, maybe
very minimally.

The colour of the stone is light yellow with orange/light red
dots on it.

If the stone would have been harder and have a bit more lively/strong
colours, this stone would have been even more amazing. I don't know
what it means that the stone feels quite light.

I give this stone 8/10. Good to very good final finisher stone for knives,
plane blades and probably for razors as well(I'm still learning shaving with
a straight razor). Too fine for knive users maybe.

Sharpman

Has anyone tried Shapton Pros? I have been playing with Shapton Pro 2-12k and have to say I am very happy with the performance.

Haven't tried them, but after what Oz has told me about them, I'm really tempted after I either get more work or do more honing for barber shops & can rationalize the expense. Seem like what I'm looking for in synthetics these days.

Stefan, what has your experience been w/ them (speed,feedback,lapping needed, etc.)?

Originally Posted by PA23-250

Haven't tried them, but after what Oz has told me about them, I'm really tempted after I either get more work or do more honing for barber shops & can rationalize the expense. Seem like what I'm looking for in synthetics these days.

Stefan, what has your experience been w/ them (speed,feedback,lapping needed, etc.)?

I did not like the 1k , too little feedback, the 2,8, 12k are great. Speed of 8k and 12k is slower than Super Stones but the bevel polishes a bit more.
It is then very easy to go to my Jnat finisher just with tomonagura and no other prepolishing needed.

I used the naniwa 8k ss today and after that the sigma 13k to
check the mirror finish. It seems the naniwa gives a better mirror
finish whereas the sigma gives more of high natural stone finish, still
mirror like but less than the naniwa 8k ss.

Originally Posted by SharpMan

I used the naniwa 8k ss today and after that the sigma 13k to
check the mirror finish. It seems the naniwa gives a better mirror
finish whereas the sigma gives more of high natural stone finish, still
mirror like but less than the naniwa 8k ss.

Polish is an odd and interesting component... Some hone vendors mention that the
chemistry of their binder and matrix polishes better. As always the
only test of importance is the shave test.

I have noticed that at the final stages of honing this frosted vs. mirror
finish difference lets me see how well my hones are working and how
well they are lapped to an identical profile (flat).

Slurry at this stage also has important interactions... I have moved away
from all but a soft natural slurry at 8k and finer on man made hones. Note:
I have been using an extra extra coarse DMT to lap my hones flat and it does
generate chunks so I have started to use a carborundum 101 razor hone to clean
the surface of swarf and soften the slurry for the razor. I think Glenn has mentioned an
experiment with a translucent Arkansas rubbing stone to much the same end with
good results.

Also my DMT leaves scratches that I use to gauge the need to lap the hone back to flat.
As swarf builds up I can see "clean trenches" and only when the hone wears enough
for those to vanish do I lap for flat again. This is very visible on the 8k side of
a Norton combo.

I used the naniwa 8k ss today and after that the sigma 13k to
check the mirror finish. It seems the naniwa gives a better mirror
finish whereas the sigma gives more of high natural stone finish, still
mirror like but less than the naniwa 8k ss.

I have noticed similar. The Sigma 13k Select II does indeed scratch the bevel, not unlike natural stones.
If you are interested, I am working on a review regarding the Sigma Select II 13k and can provide some images I made for comparison.

The Naniwa SS8k and SS10k provided a very high grade mirror. I dare say this mirror will only be outperformed by industrial grade 3M lapping film.
So far I tried Shapton Pro, Shapton GS, Naniwa Chosera, Suehiro Gold and the above mentioned Sigma 13k. None of them came close to the Mirror of the SS.

Here is a picture of a bevel set with 3M lapping film. The progression was 5µm silicon carbide, 3µm aluminium oxyde, 1µm aluminium oxyde and for good measure 1µm diamond lapping film.
That is what the bevel and edge looked like



Magnification ~40x. Almost impossible to focus on. I used different angles and light settings, always the same result


Magnification ~120x. The edge looks flawed, but it is not! The distortions are halos from the camera and lighting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This polish has been set with a constant sharpening direction. All scratches from the lapping film where in the same direction (and have been removed completely, anyway).
The Sigma Select II 13k I used with a different sharpening direction! 40 laps have been done in the direction from top left, to bottom right of the image, whereas the bevel setting has been done in the opposite direction.
I finished with 20 laps perpendicular to the edge. The only source for all scratches in these directions is the Sigma 13k. There was no possibility of "underlying scratches popping up" (a theory I do not subscribe to).


Magnification ~40x. There are more pictures with different light settings, all show these scratch marks

For the final test of the edge, I executed a micro bevel with a second layer of tape. The resulting edge was fairly straight and only slightly jagged at this high rate of magnification.
The edge was similar to that of the Shapton GS 16k and better than Naniwa SS10k.

Magnification ~120x

Now, to the naked eye the polish does look good. Depending on the angle of light you may get a very dark luster but if you are looking for it you will find the scratches as fairly thin white lines with the naked eye.
The loupe will reveal these quickly. If you are not striving for the perfect polish, the Sigma 13k may be interesting for you! The Shapton GS 16k produces similar results; to the naked eye the luster is impeccable (thus slightly better than the Sigma 13k). But the loupe will reveal even thinner and more shallow white lines.
Under magnification you will get something like this:



Note this is a different razor (with a much smaller bevel), different light settings and a different stone!
So these images are not really comparable

Originally Posted by Lesslemming

I have noticed similar. The Sigma 13k Select II does indeed scratch the bevel, not unlike natural stones.
If you are interested, I am working on a review regarding the Sigma Select II 13k and can provide some images I made for comparison.

The Naniwa SS8k and SS10k provided a very high grade mirror. I dare say this mirror will only be outperformed by industrial grade 3M lapping film.
So far I tried Shapton Pro, Shapton GS, Naniwa Chosera, Suehiro Gold and the above mentioned Sigma 13k. None of them came close to the Mirror of the SS.

Here is a picture of a bevel set with 3M lapping film. The progression was 5µm silicon carbide, 3µm aluminium oxyde, 1µm aluminium oxyde and for good measure 1µm diamond lapping film.
That is what the bevel and edge looked like



Magnification ~40x. Almost impossible to focus on. I used different angles and light settings, always the same result


Magnification ~120x. The edge looks flawed, but it is not! The distortions are halos from the camera and lighting.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This polish has been set with a constant sharpening direction. All scratches from the lapping film where in the same direction (and have been removed completely, anyway).
The Sigma Select II 13k I used with a different sharpening direction! 40 laps have been done in the direction from top left, to bottom right of the image, whereas the bevel setting has been done in the opposite direction.
I finished with 20 laps perpendicular to the edge. The only source for all scratches in these directions is the Sigma 13k. There was no possibility of "underlying scratches popping up" (a theory I do not subscribe to).


Magnification ~40x. There are more pictures with different light settings, all show these scratch marks

For the final test of the edge, I executed a micro bevel with a second layer of tape. The resulting edge was fairly straight and only slightly jagged at this high rate of magnification.
The edge was similar to that of the Shapton GS 16k and better than Naniwa SS10k.

Magnification ~120x

Now, to the naked eye the polish does look good. Depending on the angle of light you may get a very dark luster but if you are looking for it you will find the scratches as fairly thin white lines with the naked eye.
The loupe will reveal these quickly. If you are not striving for the perfect polish, the Sigma 13k may be interesting for you! The Shapton GS 16k produces similar results; to the naked eye the luster is impeccable (thus slightly better than the Sigma 13k). But the loupe will reveal even thinner and more shallow white lines.
Under magnification you will get something like this:



Note this is a different razor (with a much smaller bevel), different light settings and a different stone!
So these images are not really comparable

Excellent info Les! Just wondering though, if the naniwa 8 and 10k SS give a
better mirror finish, wouldn't this mean a better edge? I know one can't compare
natural stones to synthetics, but we are comparing synthetics with each other.

I was always under the impression that the shapton pro30k gave the best mirror
finish of all synthetics. What is it about the naniwa 8,10,12k that gives such high
mirror finish?

So do you think the sigma13k is really 13k?

Thanks.