Thread: Naniwa 12k vs Sigma 13k

Originally Posted by SharpMan

Excellent info Les! Just wondering though, if the naniwa 8 and 10k SS give a
better mirror finish, wouldn't this mean a better edge?
Thanks.

I am not sure if the level of polish can be related to edge quality, the binders are different and that plays a big role in the final result.
For example Chosera and Super stone use same abrasive but different binding method, the resulting edges are not identical.

I think Mainman is absolutely right. The polish of a bevel does not relate to the quality of the edge.
There is no doubt in my mind the sigma 13k is a very fine stone. Since grit and microns don't compare from one manufacturer to another it is impossible to tell how fine the stone really is. In my opinion the produceable edge is finer than the ss10k and equally as fine as the gs 16k. I think one can get very good shaves although I have encountered some microchips on a microscopic level. Nothing to worry about, me thinks.

Originally Posted by Lesslemming

I think Mainman is absolutely right. The polish of a bevel does not relate to the quality of the edge.
There is no doubt in my mind the sigma 13k is a very fine stone. Since grit and microns don't compare from one manufacturer to another it is impossible to tell how fine the stone really is. In my opinion the produceable edge is finer than the ss10k and equally as fine as the gs 16k. I think one can get very good shaves although I have encountered some microchips on a microscopic level. Nothing to worry about, me thinks.

Les, I have noticed that the 13K feels amazing first 10 seconds or so, but
then it start feeling slightly rough and less buttery. Cleaning the surface with
the naniwa slurry stone or a guangxi slurry stone and it feels amazing again. Have
you tried cleaning the surface every 10 seconds or so? Might give better results.

Sharpman

Good idea, I will give that a try! I have felt a sensation of grittyness that I can not attribute to bad flattening. I have lapped the stone with dmt 325 and 600 thoroughly. I was wondering if the grittyness is the reason for the scratches and are due to the rather special bonding of the stone. Should the polish improve with repeated rinsing this might be a case of particles becoming loose or steel balls or chips cut from the steel causing the irregular scratches

Originally Posted by Lesslemming

Good idea, I will give that a try! I have felt a sensation of grittyness that I can not attribute to bad flattening. I have lapped the stone with dmt 325 and 600 thoroughly. I was wondering if the grittyness is the reason for the scratches and are due to the rather special bonding of the stone. Should the polish improve with repeated rinsing this might be a case of particles becoming loose or steel balls or chips cut from the steel causing the irregular scratches

This is why I have moved to an old carborundum 101 barber hone to tidy up
the surface after lapping flat with a DMT. I also repeatedly rinse the hone surface
using only my palm to remove swarf and lumpy slurry. For me this does improve the final edge.

Another trick is to worry the surface with an old razor with a monster bevel and
excessive spine wear. This does two things one of which is hone the old razor
to a very satisfactory edge and also leaves the surface in better shape for my
"better razors". Some days, the Sigma 13K will develop a textured surface because some binder will
erode deeper and quicker from the action of coarse slurry. BTW: So does my Superstone 3K.

In the 10K range my Naniwa Chosera 10k, Naniwa Superstone 12k and Sigma 13K seem
to be near equals in terms of the shave test when I use them well. In all cases I
get a smooth fine strop ready edge and a good shave. While I have my preferences
I cannot recommend one over the other.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

In the 10K range my Naniwa Chosera 10k, Naniwa Superstone 12k and Sigma 13K seem
to be near equals in terms of the shave test when I use them well. In all cases I
get a smooth fine strop ready edge and a good shave. While I have my preferences
I cannot recommend one over the other.

+1, this is pretty much how I find it too.
Personal preferences aside, they all deliver good and consistent results in the same range.

As a side note, the same can be said about the next level in my progression.
The Shapton 30K and the 20K Gokumyo are really tough to tell apart.
There seems to be a big gap in the grit rating, but due to differences in standards and the way the different companies use said standards, they appear to me as pretty much at the same level.

Originally Posted by Birnando

.....snip..... the next level in my progression.
The Shapton 30K and the 20K Gokumyo are really tough to tell apart.
.....snip.....

Oh my, oh my, oh my, yet another brand of hones to lust after.
The Suehiro Gokumyo hones look like deluxe hones
and seem to have addressed some issues in previous
generations..... But the good part is that the price
is well outside my current budget at current exchange
rates.

Originally Posted by mainaman

Has anyone tried Shapton Pros? I have been playing with Shapton Pro 2-12k and have to say I am very happy with the performance.

I had a full set and gave them up in lieu of the Shapton Glass Stones. Personal preference and consistency for me.

This is why I have moved to an old carborundum 101 barber hone to tidy up
the surface after lapping flat with a DMT.

I never had any problems caused by lapping my stones with the DMT 325 and 600. Especially the 600 is over the top and leaves a perfect surface on the stone.
I used them to lap my Naniwa Superstones, Chosera, Shapton Pros and Shapton GS and got to the full potential of all of them. If I stop at 325, I surely need to do some extra work on the stones
to get the surface clean and ready. I really think the lapping technique can't be to blame for the scratches.


Btw. Shaving test yesterday was just fine. I shaved with the razor seen above and one finished on 0.5µm diamond lapping film. I prefer the lapping film,
although the shave with the Sigma 13k was not bad

Originally Posted by mainaman

I did not like the 1k , too little feedback, the 2,8, 12k are great. Speed of 8k and 12k is slower than Super Stones but the bevel polishes a bit more.
It is then very easy to go to my Jnat finisher just with tomonagura and no other prepolishing needed.

I've heard the 12k Pro makes a great prepolisher before a Jnat, but you say you feel it's slower than the SS? From what I've read, the pros are supposed to be faster than the GS, which in turn are supposed to be faster than the Supers, but I haven't used any Shaptons so I'm curious.