Thread: Jnat buyers remorse: please help me ;'(

Originally Posted by gssixgun

KISS

Here are the facts as I see them from the thread

You are fairly new to honing
You sought out and bought a HARD Jnat
Very hard Jnats are known to be for advanced honing
It takes quite a bit of experience and practice to get the most out of an advanced stone
It takes even more experience to learn to get the most out of a Jant when honing western style razors
Western razors don't use enough pressure while honing to make use of the slurry techniques to get a smoother edge then just water on the stone
Watch ALX's vid again his unconventional style breaks down the slurry so does a Pigtail Stroke search it out
If you wanted faster results then you should have bought either the Shapton or the Naniwa systems
Honing on any Natural period, has to be a romance and you have to embrace the challenge
There is no easy solution Honing is not rocket science therefore there is no set formula
Once you get one razor to pop, that is just the very begining of the journey


Good Luck with taking the first steps

yes everything that you said is very true. yes shapton glass stones would have been a sound choice but I wanted to " be in the romance and accept the challenge"

I feel confident now and it is good to know that my technique is the limiting factor and it is not the stone itself. I am going to have a lot of fun learning this stone.

I already had some improvement today when I finished my 8k razor on Mejiro nagura and I let it break down all the way and then I used light strokes. Since I am having difficulty raising a slurry with the tomo nagura dear Maksim (who sold me the stones) told me he would send me another softer one soon (I am very appreciative of his generosity and kindness).

Originally Posted by SharpMan

The fact that the tomonagura actually scratched his stone according
to the OP makes me think that the tomonagura is actually very close to the
stones hardness. I have never been able to scratch my hard stone with
an even slighltly softer tomonagura. I don't know about your hardness
ratings, but LV 5+ and LV4 seems quite a difference, so I am surprised
it would cause scratches.

Those super hard stones is difficult to make slurry on even with bit softer Nagura, i dont know what stone you have but maybe it is quite soft it self.
If you have big pressure or not scarfed edges on your Nagura it will scratch even if its softer.
If you want slurry from your hone it self and not from your Nagura you need harder Nagura thats why many people ask for one !
It is not necessarily better but that what they ask for.
If you dont have patience to take time and very slowly to make slurry then you need softer one.

For the line in the stone like Daniel said already i have tested the stone and it is not toxic !!! Or you can not even feel it with your razor.
If it is, it is very simpel i have for all of my stones return policy, if you dont like you can return
Same is with nagura if you dont like i send you new free of charge

Here is bit better picture of the hone and the line

Originally Posted by danielghofrani

mainaman I am so happy you replied because I heard you put an HHT5 on a filarmonica edge.

this is how I lapped the stone: soaked my Norton 1k in water for 15 minutes, then I lapped the jnat until it was flat. then I proceeded with Norton 4k to make it smooth. finally I used the tomo nagura to make the stone shiny.

I think I have to lap it again though since I was careless with tomo nagura and I scratched the stone while honing ;(

I read the whole thread and I start to think you are new to honing in general?
My Jnat is much harder than yours and I have no problem getting a great edge on it. I feel like you just tried your stone on one razor and did not get the edge you expected and now the stone is the problem. Just give it time and learn it, also from 8k to your finisher will take a bit more work to get the edge to the max, you need to do a few dilutions before you use a tomonagura for the finish.

Originally Posted by SharpMan

A shiny line CAN be a toxic line. Try your razor on the whole
stone and then only on the line a stroke or ten. If it feels roughter,
more catchy than the rest of the stone, perhaps even tiny particles get loose from
that line, than the rest of the stone, that is not good news.

Check this:
An Object Lesson in Japanese Hones: Part II | Eastern Smooth: The Blog

Hopefully no toxic line. I am surprised it is a kiita as
I practically don't see any yellow in it. Perhaps it is
the picture.

Sharpman

I am really confused by your posts here.
#1 you have not tried the stone to make any comments about the quality.
#2 just because the line is shiny does not mean it is toxic, I bet the stone was tested before the sale and it was determined that the line is not a problem.

The fact that the tomonagura actually scratched his stone according
to the OP makes me think that the tomonagura is actually very close to the
stones hardness.

I have soft tomonagura and it can scratch the stone easy as soon as I put too much pressure on it, the corner can dig into the stone just like that, if the OP decided to press harder seeing that the slurry was not generated as fast as the OP figured it should, I can see how the stone will get scratched. Heck I have a lvl 5+ tomonagura and it does not scratch when used carefully.
I would understand your comments if you actually had tried that particular stone and tomonagura but you are commenting based on the notes a of newbie that had his best edge off a Norton 8k, the guy has a ton to learn before he can make any final judgement on his particular Jnat.

I've had trouble with my Ozuku Asagi level 5+ and I'm not new to honing. I feel the OP's pain. IMHO, There's way too many variables when it comes to Jnats, especially for newbies. Jnats should be considered "Advanced Honing" When you guys start talking about Nagura, Toxic lines, Strata, Kanji, Pre Polishers, etc...It can be daunting to a new guy who's just trying to get a good edge off his blade. Now, you can't even lapp them with a dmt, you need an Atoma and It goes on and on. It's almost as if you need a college course on these things. I'm an educated man, but even I get confused, The more people you talk to, the more the answers change.

I appreciate the members who actually take the time to help these guys with there problems and answer their posts.
They read these posts about the wonderful edges people get, and think they can just buy a stone, do a few laps, and there you have it. It's not that easy and there's a multitude of Jnats out there. Some very affordable, Some costing over $2000.00.

I'd recommend coming off (mastering) your 8k, and doing a few lapps on a Wool Felt strop treated with .50 Diamond spray, really. It gives you a nice edge, is very cost effective and very easy to use. Once you've been doing this a while, have some honing under your belt, then move on to Jnats. Just my opinion.

These days, I'm with Jimmy, Less is more camp. I stopped the madness, the HAD, chasing every stone under the rainbow. A Chosera, a set of Nortons/Naniwa's and a good Escher. If you want more, hit the pastes or sprays. it works very well.

P.S. Of course I still have my Jnats....

I am totally agree with Zip if you just want to have nice edge dont buy Jnat or any Naturals a all
Just go for 8k and pastes or sprays.
But some people like to play and experiment with sharpening or honing, then they reach for Naturals or more advance honing.
But you have to have your basics right befor you go and experiment with all those stuff.
It takes more time and more effort to get better edges from naturals and i think it is all over internet so people can read that it is not easy just to buy any natural and get best edge in couple of days !!

Thank you,
But Maxim, I already get very sharp and nice edge from synthetics and paste. but I wanted to hone on Japanese naturals for 2 reasons:

1-get the legendary smooth and sharp edge. ( I bought a razor from gugi and I don't know what he had it honed on but it was smoother than I ever encountered, I thought I would get similar edge with a high end jnat)

2-pure nostalgia of a "natural" hone and nagura and history of Japan and ... (come on don't laugh at me! nostalgia is half of the reason we are all here!! )

Originally Posted by danielghofrani

2-pure nostalgia of a "natural" hone and nagura and history of Japan and ... (come on don't laugh at me! nostalgia is half of the reason we are all here!! )

Exactly But it takes time

Originally Posted by maxim207

Exactly But it takes time

This is true. I could have the same bicycle that Lance Armstrong won the tour on, or the set of clubs that Tiger Woods uses, but these don't mean that I will be able to ride like Lance or drive a ball like Tiger. Skill with honing is acquired with time and practice. Lynn says that he is still learning new things even after all of these years. In the few years I've been here he went from the pyramid to the circle technique. I have seen my skills improve considerably with time and practice. So hang in there and keep working on it, eventually you'll find the edges you're looking for.

Originally Posted by mainaman

I am really confused by your posts here.
#1 you have not tried the stone to make any comments about the quality.
#2 just because the line is shiny does not mean it is toxic, I bet the stone was tested before the sale and it was determined that the line is not a problem.


I have soft tomonagura and it can scratch the stone easy as soon as I put too much pressure on it, the corner can dig into the stone just like that, if the OP decided to press harder seeing that the slurry was not generated as fast as the OP figured it should, I can see how the stone will get scratched. Heck I have a lvl 5+ tomonagura and it does not scratch when used carefully.
I would understand your comments if you actually had tried that particular stone and tomonagura but you are commenting based on the notes a of newbie that had his best edge off a Norton 8k, the guy has a ton to learn before he can make any final judgement on his particular Jnat.

There is no need for confusion. You need to read my post more clearly
before you respond. I did not comment on the quality of the stone. Before even
seeing the stone I responded that the OP should look for shiny lines on the stone
as they MIGHT be toxic line, not just in that particular stone, but in general. I never
said op's stone had a toxic line, but it might be possible. Just because Maxim sold
that stones does not mean that I cannot inform OP that this possibility exists.

It is good as a buyer to get you stones from somebody you can trust, but you
still should test your stone yourself always.

I have a few soft tomonaguras and I can put all the pressure in the world on it
and still not scratch my hard stones. Perhaps mine are considerably softer.

Using a harder tomonagura than the stone itself does not make sense to me,but
I might be wrong. It can create many scratches even if you are careful.