Thread: Can you "feel" progress when honing?

Originally Posted by shooter74743

I didn't try to pull 20 different guys "idea's or experience", I worked with one master.

Thanks for all the input Shooter. I like the idea of one master mentor. Almost any question a newbie asks can get different answers from different people based on personal preference. At least with only one guy you know his/her tools and technique works for one person anyway.

You are reinforcing my desire not to get any more stones. If I am not getting a given result now another stone won't help. All it would do is take away money from something else. In fact, I may break my vow not to buy something soon though. There's another thread about kangaroo strops. I wonder how many purchases one thread can create? Just a thought. I have a 3"x8" roo strop mounted on glass. I know how roo performs on knives and I'm sure it's just as wonderful on razors. Actually, the performance of roo is not needed or seldom needed for knives IMO. Serious chefs and their knives maybe. But definitely not most pocket knives or knives for the tool box. SRD has a roo strop for a very fair price IMO. But, buying the roo strop isn't in an attempt to get better results. It's just that I know I like kangaroo hide for stropping. That's my justification anyway. I also need to start my Christmas list.

Originally Posted by Jack0458

You are reinforcing my desire not to get any more stones. If I am not getting a given result now another stone won't help.

Thank you for listening and learning. You are on the right track to where you want to be. It's no difference than precision shooting...the tools will only take you so far, the rest is in the shooter. No different in the straight razor world, it's not the tools, it's the hands the tools are in.

The kangaroo strop is being delivered today. After I get that strop I'll be the best stropper in the world. You know a new tool always increases ability.

To the original OP…Yes.

As you abrade on a higher grit stone the bevel smooth’s out, as you remove the previous stria. Once the stria and the grit are the same, the feel smooth’s out.

Don’t over think or over stone, (a 1k progression) or the latest or most expensive finish stone available. All stone progressions do the same thing, some faster, or with different feed-back… pick one and learn it.

Set the bevel on a low grit stone, then polish the bevel to straighten the edge. The number of stones needed depend on the cutting ability of the stone, how much time the user is willing to spend and the technique of the user.

It was not uncommon to do a natural 2 stone progression, bevel set and finisher, not that long ago. It just took some time and probably where the movies picked up on the well-worn shot of a guy obsessively honing a knife on a stone to produce a “razor sharp” edge on a big movie knife.

All you need is a 1k, 4, & 8k progression, setting the bevel with the 1k and polishing out the stria from each previous progression. Once the previous stria is removed you are done with that stone. That is what you feel, then confirm with your eyes and magnification.

Learn a 1/4/8 progression or the equivalent, once you are getting CONSISTANT good shaves, then add a 10,12 or 16, master that then add a natural finisher or a 20k. If you are having problems, look to your bevel set.

But all this does not matter if you cannot strop perfectly. One errant swipe can ruin all your perfect honing. Also if you cannot stop, paste will not help you.

Keep it simple and use your eyes.

As a result of this thread I've made the decision to leave all stones above 8k on the shelf for a while.. Thank you.

I've also spent some time researching the idea of over-honing and the impact it can have on the edge. I have to admit, I am undecided whether the problem is over-honing on the higher grit stones or under-honing on the lower grit stones (advancing too early or staying on a grit too long). This seems to be a well debated topic. The lesson learned is that one must be attentive to the ques from the stone.. Don't stop too early yet avoid continuing too long. Alas, there is no easy way to determine the right number of strokes for any given stone/blade combo. In the end, it's all about learning to 'feel it'.

Back to regularly scheduled programming...

Originally Posted by MikekiM

As a result of this thread I've made the decision to leave all stones above 8k on the shelf for a while.. Thank you.

ME TOO!!!

I've also spent some time researching the idea of over-honing and the impact it can have on the edge. I have to admit, I am undecided whether the problem is over-honing on the higher grit stones or under-honing on the lower grit stones (advancing too early or staying on a grit too long). This seems to be a well debated topic. The lesson learned is that one must be attentive to the ques from the stone.. Don't stop too early yet avoid continuing too long. Alas, there is no easy way to determine the right number of strokes for any given stone/blade combo. In the end, it's all about learning to 'feel it'.

Back to regularly scheduled programming...

It seems to me the worst thing about spending too much time on the coarser stones, especially under 4k, is it would remove more steel than necessary. So when do we stop? For now I'm going with the theory of when the "feel" becomes smoother, do a couple more passes then switch to the next higher grit. Start with that theory and learn more as time passes. With the Shapton glass stones and a new kangaroo strop I have good tools. Now I need to find the store that sells ability.

“Alas, there is no easy way to determine the right number of strokes for any given stone/blade combo. In the end, it's all about learning to 'feel it'.”

Yes there is… use your eyes, magnification and strong light. The feel comes later, after you confirm with your eyes.

Even when the bevel feels smooth, I test with a TPT and a quick look with a loupe. You may be able to feel the smoothness of the bevel, but that will tell you nothing about the edge.

“Overhoning” can easily be resolved by jointing the edge on the corner of the stone, 1 or 2 light strokes. Then re-hone on the same stone.

Set the bevel and test however you wish so that you are absolutely sure the bevels are meeting completely from heel to toe, then move on.

I would bet most novice honers “Overhoning” issues are bevel set problems.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

“Alas, there is no easy way to determine the right number of strokes for any given stone/blade combo. In the end, it's all about learning to 'feel it'.”

Yes there is… use your eyes, magnification and strong light. The feel comes later, after you confirm with your eyes.

I meant that more literally... as in you can't assume 'if I do x number strokes it's going to be done'. I relying on four things for confirming bevel set.. visual inspection for errant reflection; Sharpie test; TPT; and AHT for single hairs, at spots across the blade. I try to take the mindset of forced failure, meaning if I have any doubt any one of these tests fails, I'm not ready to move on. Hard to explain, but philosophically, it reduces the chance I fall prey to a false positive.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Even when the bevel feels smooth, I test with a TPT and a quick look with a loupe. You may be able to feel the smoothness of the bevel, but that will tell you nothing about the edge.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

“Overhoning” can easily be resolved by jointing the edge on the corner of the stone, 1 or 2 light strokes. Then re-hone on the same stone.

Set it, kill it and reset it? Is that what you're saying?

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Set the bevel and test however you wish so that you are absolutely sure the bevels are meeting completely from heel to toe, then move on.

I would bet most novice honers “Overhoning” issues are bevel set problems.

I would agree with this as well...

I'm assessing the edge very often after 4k and I probably stop just short of maxing out on the 8k because I know my C12k and my CrOx pasted loom strop will take it the rest of the way. I've had very few over honed edges this way. I also strop after honing as I count it as part of the overall process of getting a great edge

Originally Posted by MikekiM

Set it, kill it and reset it? Is that what you're saying?

I think he means "kill it" if you think over-honing has occurred. Then start over. KILLING the edge is a very common thing for sharpening knives. Starting over with brand new steel is sometimes easier than trying to "fix" an edge with a problem. This is why I think he means kill it only if it's been over-honed. I don't know if this is accurate though. I'd like to hear Euclid's answer to your question. I could be way off.

I forgot. What is TPT; and AHT?