Thread: Can you "feel" progress when honing?

So the issue of Overhoning has been discussed to death, does it exist? Is it poor bevel set or chipping for any number of reasons, excess pressure the main one?

It does not matter... if you get micro chipping, the edge must be removed, by honing until it falls off and becomes straight or by jointing/killing, to make it straight and get to solid steel then re-hone the edge. How you do it does not matter.

The bevels are already flat and very close to meeting so it should not take too much to make them meet again, if you kill or joint it. I prefer jointing because you know you are restarting with a straight edge.

What we write here will be read by possibly thousands of novice honers, who may think there is some magical feel, that will tell them when the bevel is set and or when to switch stones. That feeling comes with experience, but it does not tell you anything about the edge. For most razors after the bevel is set, the smooth feeling is when the previous grit has been removed... but not always.

Your eyes will never give you a false positive, the bevels either meet or they don’t. The edge is chip free or it is not.

Try to max out each stone removing the deeper previous stria, it makes the next stone easier and makes a stronger, straighter edge, especially for a novice. In many ways, it is like sanding, if you do not remove deep scratches from the low grit, higher grits will not get out and you will see it in the final finish.

Which is why there is no formula of x laps, you have to do what the razor requires. If x laps worked for you last time, do x laps, then look. If it worked fine, if not do more until the bevels meet or the previous stria is removed.

TPT Thumb Pad Test, takes a while to learn/calibrate, touch every sharp edge you can, eventually you will calibrate what sharp feels like, to your thumb.

AHT Arm Hair Test, Source of many false positives as you are testing a very small sample and not all hair is the same. When the test fails, no one eve says FAIL. No, they test another part of the edge, then say, Ok it’s good, when it cuts a hair…

Bottom line… adopt a FOOLPROOF bevel set test, then remove the previous stria, by polishing without mucking up the edge.

Jointing/killing the edge is very lightly dragging the edge on a corner of the stone and feeling for the chip/s. 1-2 heel to toe swipes should do remove enough damaged steel to get a straight edge. Just enough to remove enough steel to straighten a micro chip.

I bevel the opposing right hand corners of my stones so I have a 1/8 in bevel on the corner for a little better feel, it is not necessary.

I am right handed, which is why I do the right hand corners… Works for me.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

....Your eyes will never give you a false positive, the bevels either meet or they don’t. The edge is chip free or it is not.

Try to max out each stone removing the deeper previous stria, it makes the next stone easier and makes a stronger, straighter edge, especially for a novice. In many ways, it is like sanding, if you do not remove deep scratches from the low grit, higher grits will not get out and you will see it in the final finish.

Which is why there is no formula of x laps, you have to do what the razor requires. If x laps worked for you last time, do x laps, then look. If it worked fine, if not do more until the bevels meet or the previous stria is removed.

Agreed.. I am a lifelong woodworker and understand completely. I am not suggesting one needs Fairy Dust and Unicorn Wings so you can 'feel' something that isn't there. It's been my experience that combination of the hard tests (AHT, TPT, Sharpie, Visual) work well. Repeatable. That said, suction on the stone is a hard one to describe in single dimension of text; it's something you feel. And it's quite pronounced with the Shapton system. Do you not agree with that? This is a thread about the 'feel' isn't it?

I understand, and have used the jointing method though I didn't call it that.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

....AHT Arm Hair Test, Source of many false positives as you are testing a very small sample and not all hair is the same. When the test fails, no one eve says FAIL. No, they test another part of the edge, then say, Ok it’s good, when it cuts a hair…

Regarding AHT, maybe I am in the minority on this. I know my AHT is somewhat unorthodox. I don't 'just test another part of the edge and move on'. That's forcing the edge to pass tests. I prefer to approach bevel set tests as forcing the test to fail. (Think Guilty until proven Innocent)

I agreed that each hair is different. AHT as I am doing it is intending to be a very small sample; it's one hair at a time. I use the hair on my thigh when I can because my arm hair is pretty light and dissimilar to my whiskers. I start at the toe and work my way down the blade in rough 1/2" steps, isolating a single hair to cut. If that section of the edge requires any extra effort to sever the hair, the section is deemed to have failed. If it fails to cut, that section obviously fails. If it cuts cleanly, I have one more reliable indication that the bevel is set for that section. If any one section is questionable or fails, the bevel isn't set and I don't move on. I've gotten quite good at judging the bevel in this manner and it has almost always cross-referenced with what the TNT, visual and Sharpie tests are telling me. Less so with TPT. For me TPT is a Yes/No test. I am still calibrating levels of stick to my thumb pad. On other hand (or arm), the single hair test (SHT) reveals more than Yes/No, but if it's anything less than a resounding YES, I force a No.

I find Sharpie/Visual + SHT to be very reliable and repeatable.

I'll add Jointing.. I can see value in that step and agree, if you're jointing an already set edge, getting the bevel back isn't a big deal. Good idea on the bevel too. Thanks.

Euclid and MikeKim.
Thanks for the posts. I understand everything I think. The only thing I don't think I've "felt" is the suction issue. I can tell when the feel of the stroke get smoother. But Idon't remember a feeling I'd call suction. But as one of you said, it's hard to describe feelings. One thing I'm convinced of is I'm understanding more and getting better, slowly. I thank you guys and others for the help.

Originally Posted by Jack0458

Euclid and MikeKim.
Thanks for the posts. I understand everything I think. The only thing I don't think I've "felt" is the suction issue. I can tell when the feel of the stroke get smoother. But Idon't remember a feeling I'd call suction. But as one of you said, it's hard to describe feelings. One thing I'm convinced of is I'm understanding more and getting better, slowly. I thank you guys and others for the help.

Yes, hard to describe..

Let's say you just finished on the 4k. The scratch pattern should be only 4k scratches.. you've replaced the scratch pattern from the earlier stones with those from the 4k. You're moving to the 8k. The 4k scratch pattern doesn't match the finer 8k surface and initially you can feel the 8k working to remove/replace the 4k scratches. The feel is bit gritty. As the scratch pattern is replaced by 8k scratches the feeling smooths out and you can feel the edge getting stuck, or being sucked down onto the 8k surface. It feels sort of staccato.. like the edge is skipping or sticking to the stone. Some gents call it 'stick-tion' for this reason [sp]. I believe the physics behind it is that once the scratch pattern matches the stones surface voids, a low pressure area is created between the two, and there is a feeling of suction between the blade and the stone.

Hard to explain and equally challenging to feel. Especially if you're applying any level of pressure in excess of the weight of the blade.

It's one more tool...that works for me.

And of course, I can be totally wrong.

Originally Posted by MikekiM

Yes, hard to describe..

Let's say you just finished on the 4k. The scratch pattern should be only 4k scratches.. you've replaced the scratch pattern from the earlier stones with those from the 4k. You're moving to the 8k. The 4k scratch pattern doesn't match the finer 8k surface and initially you can feel the 8k working to remove/replace the 4k scratches. The feel is bit gritty. As the scratch pattern is replaced by 8k scratches the feeling smooths out and you can feel the edge getting stuck, or being sucked down onto the 8k surface. It feels sort of staccato.. like the edge is skipping or sticking to the stone. Some gents call it 'stick-tion' for this reason [sp]. I believe the physics behind it is that once the scratch pattern matches the stones surface voids, a low pressure area is created between the two, and there is a feeling of suction between the blade and the stone.

Hard to explain and equally challenging to feel. Especially if you're applying any level of pressure in excess of the weight of the blade.

It's one more tool...that works for me.

And of course, I can be totally wrong.

I can, in theory, understand everything you said about obtaining sticktion. Especially on water stones when the water/slurry can fill even the microscopic void between stone and edge. This makes sense to me. Or maybe we are both wrong.

Kinda-sorta off topic but not really. We say "remove scratches". What we are really doing is removing the peaks between scratches. Then the surface is at the same level as the deepest scratch from the previous stone.

Originally Posted by Jack0458

Kinda-sorta off topic but not really. We say "remove scratches". What we are really doing is removing the peaks between scratches. Then the surface is at the same level as the deepest scratch from the previous stone.

I would have to agree with that, though I like to think of it as 'replace' scratches since 'remove' only accounts for half of the equation regardless of what grit we're taking about. Even a 30k will leave its' own scratch pattern, albeit very fine.

Yea, you are removing the previous scratch pattern and replacing with a finer scratch pattern. To test this ink the bevel and do a very light lap. You will see the bottom of the groves are still painted with ink. Once you remove all the ink the previous scratch is gone and finer ones are in place.

About test, guys get all caught up on test and there have been some heated post as to which test is better.
Who cares, use the least destructive test with the most conclusive results.

I routinely use a hair test when first setting a bevel. Just grab an arm hair or two, just to see when the edge begins to come together. Do a few more laps and do a TPT because it is quick and I can tell if the whole edge is coming together. When I think it is all there, do a couple more laps and check it with a lighted loupe straight down on the edge.

Before I move on I want to be absolutely sure the complete edge from heel to toe is set.

If you eliminate the bevel set as an issue, most of your honing problems will go away.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

If you eliminate the bevel set as an issue, most of your honing problems will go away.

I decided to re-set a bevel for a couple of reasons. Mainly, of course I need practice to master anything. Second, I'm testing everyone's advice. I figure if I follow advice and the razor turns out badly, it's YOUR fault. Joking of course.

I started with a Shapton glass 4k and about 7-8 passes. I had marked the bevel with a sharpie. I was a little surprised at how far up on the bevel the marker was removed and the edge apex wasn't even close to being touched. I used the 1k for until I reached the apex. It was "feeling" very smooth at that point. Everything felt smooth on a couple of real slow passes from heel to toe. Then the 4k and 8k with repeated feelings. Think I did between 12 and 20 passes with the 4k. Then 8-10 on the 8k trying extra hard to use very light pressure on the last strokes. Actually I habitually use lighter and lighter pressure on the final strokes on any grit. I got that from sharpening knives. I'm not sure if it effects razor edges but I'm betting it helps. Then I used a webbing strop with .5 micron diamond spray (from SRD). Probably 15-20 passes on it. Then I used a roo strop. I stopped counting after 50 passes but kept it up. I'm sure it was more than 100 by the time I quit.

The shave I got was pretty good. Very good from my experience using razors I'm honing and stropping. I'm confident the edge isn't as shave ready as others get it but I shaved comfortably. This razor is the one I've been having problems with. Now it shaves as good as the one I honed a month or two ago and have only been stropping it. Getting my "problem" razor performing as good as other one felt good. I guess sometimes it's better (or easier) to start over than it is to correct a problem. Especially when I don't know what the problem is exactly. You know, use a shotgun instead of a rifle. Especially when you can't shoot the rifle very good.

So, since I got a good shave you guys can be glad to know your advice is good. Seriously, I appreciate the help. My shaves are slowly but surely getting better and more pleasurable. It's a combination of getting the razor a little sharper as time goes on and I'm more comfortable at shaving also.

You razor was probably taped when it was honed prior.

Are you using magnification, how did you determine, when the bevel was set?

You have to make sure the bevels are meeting completely across the whole edge.
If you don’t you honing will be hit and miss.