Thread: JNAT Honing nirvana for the noob

Originally Posted by tcrideshd

I've been saying that for as long as I can remember, in the right hands a synthetic will produce great shaving edges, smooth and sharp. For those who find them harsh, maybe they haven't gotten them to the right stage. And naturals do produce that smooth edge too. But that's still in the hands of the guy doing the honing. To each their own, but I think to get the benefit out of some of these natural finishers takes having a super edge already from the lower grit hones. Tc

I think I am in the minority here. I hone start to finish on naturals. Bevel set - final edge. Now, that being said, I have had a few (very few actually) edges entirely done on synthetics that are as smooth as any. Ace and Karlej can put a heckuva edge on a blade with only synthetics. I can't tell the difference between theirs and my naturals. Plenty of other synthetic edges I can tell but a well honed blade,if I am to be honest, I can't tell what it was honed on or finished on. That, I think is rare with synthetics and easier to achieve on naturals though.

Way I see it, there's 2 parts to the equation. 1 - the hones, 2 - the hands doing the honing. Both will effect the outcome, but the most impactful factor will always be the person doing the work.

With regard to naturals, perhaps it's because they're so slow that we're forced to take our time. Examine the edge 2, 3, four times to ensure that we're where we want to be before moving on. Not only that, but at least speaking for myself, I simply enjoy using naturals more. Because of that I have more experience, thus skill, with a natural hone. I do OK with my synthetics. I do significantly better with my naturals.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Way I see it, there's 2 parts to the equation. 1 - the hones, 2 - the hands doing the honing. Both will effect the outcome, but the most impactful factor will always be the person doing the work.

With regard to naturals, perhaps it's because they're so slow that we're forced to take our time. Examine the edge 2, 3, four times to ensure that we're where we want to be before moving on. Not only that, but at least speaking for myself, I simply enjoy using naturals more. Because of that I have more experience, thus skill, with a natural hone. I do OK with my synthetics. I do significantly better with my naturals.

If you believe naturals are slow, try a jnat from Alex Gilmore. When I was learning to hone on jnats, he'd frequently tell me 'Steve that stone may be cutting faster than you think it is', and he was right of course.

I have a small Hatanaka from him, maybe 115x50mm, and you could turn a leaf spring into a razor in short order. It's actually a viable finisher at this size because it's so blazingly fast.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Steve56

If you believe naturals are slow, try a jnat from Alex Gilmore. When I was learning to hone on jnats, he'd frequently tell me 'Steve that stone may be cutting faster than you think it is', and he was right of course.

I have a small Hatanaka from him, maybe 115x50mm, and you could turn a leaf spring into a razor in short order. It's actually a viable finisher at this size because it's so blazingly fast.

Cheers, Steve

+1 to that. I have several kiita stones that cut super fast, and are equally fine finishers. The slow cutting stones are very common, but not the consensus for ALL naturals.

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Goes without saying there are outliers. Some coticules perform that way too. But those tend to be exceptional hones, not the rule. From what I've read, the same can apply to Jnats. The really impressive ones are fast, fine, and rare. You want to keep them when you find them.

At any rate the point was less to do with the inherent speed of the stones, and more to do with our affinity for them. People that like synthetics, for whatever reason, will use them more and gain more skill with them. People the enjoy naturals for whatever reason, will use them more and become more skilled in their use. Stands to reason that you will use what you like, and become most proficient with the tool you enjoy employing more often.

Originally Posted by Marshal

Goes without saying there are outliers.

So you're saying that with few exceptions, Jnats are slow. Based on what experience? How do you know that the two stones mentioned above are outliers, and not closer to the norm? Bear in mind that when you hone on a Jnat with Asano Mikawa Nagura slurry, you're cutting with the slurry (sintered prehistoric volcanic ash) and not the toishi proper. I go straight from a 1k bevel setter to a Jnat with Botan Asano Mikawa Nagura slurry and work it until it starts to break down (gray color and grittiness starts to fade) then wipe clean and repeat. Almost every time, by the time the second slurry has started to break down, the 1k stria are gone and it's time to progress. I'll finish the slurry with a quick dilution, and then on to the next Nagura (Tenjyou). Average time from 1k finisher until stria are gone with Botan slurry is less than 10 minutes.

From here on out, I almost never need more than a single slurry from each Nagura, except when finishing on Tomo. Tomo is so fine that I usually take 3 or even 4 slurries to walk the edge up to the keenness I desire. Because Tomo slurry breaks down so quickly, this only takes a couple of minutes, then on to finish with a dozen or so laps with plain water.

I guess I would agree with what Marshal said based on a recent post by Mainaman who seems to have a lot of experience with Jnats. He said that very few Jnats that he has seen fall into the category of fast and fine. Although he has a couple they are not the norm. Of course I have no experience and am relying on my memory of another's post (which may be wrong). I will have to look for that thread.

Here it is....
"The true razor hones are not so common because a combination of extreme fineness/ no scratchiness/ speed / hardness is not something that readily occurs in nature. I happen to have several that fit most of my criteria, with exception of speed , and one that covers all points. They are amazing stones."

Again, I am just regurgitating what others have said and could be dead wrong

Well since we want to focus on speed, based on what experience? How about Onimaru's from post 31 in this thread?

You make it sound like all stones are equal but synthetics are just faster..
Well, it's a bit of a generalization but... A synthetic bevel setter is 99.9% of the time always faster than a natural. End result , both types of stone set the bevel, one is faster.
Middle stones are where speed can overlap but even here fast naturals are not common.
The 20k Gokumyo is faster than my fastest Jnat finisher. Of course if if it only takes a handful of strokes to finish, the speed is not so relevant but yes, it's possible to get results that are close enough to equal with synths or naturals & yes, synthetics are mostly quicker but at end game it's always minimal strokes & minimal pressure regardless of the stone..

Outlined his commentary in blue to make it stand out.

Now if I really have to dig through every post of this forum I've read on Jnats to find quotes from others with hands on experience with a multitude of Japanese stones, I will gladly do so. I could also quote Prodigy right above me, but there's a chance when he said, "The slow cutting stones are very common..." that he was referring to naturals in general. But many have said as much regarding Jnat finishers. Not all are equal, slow stones are common, and you may sift through many to find one that is both fast and fine.

If I understand your post correctly, that's 10 minutes on Botan, then on to the next Nagura (Tenjyou)? And how long do you spend on the Tenjyou before spending approximately 6-8 minutes on Tomo? I've clocked full bevel set to finish on soft/hard/translucent Arkansas stones at 20 minutes. Matched that with my 3 Welsh slates. And beat it with Nortons without even trying. With Nortons - bevel set - 5-7 minutes. 1K to 4k - 2.5 minutes, 4k to 8k 1 minute. 8K to finish 1 to 2.5 minutes for any given natural in my collection. Lynn Abrams does it faster(8 minutes from when his blade touches the stone to finish), without a 'proper' bevel setter, while stopping to explain the process:



You could say, "But that's only 8K..." but to go from there to the Naniwa 12K is what 10, 20 strokes? Maybe more, maybe less to max out a Suehiro 20k with nothing between the 8K and the 20?

So you tell me, how fast is a Jnat? From where I sit 18 minutes after bevel set with a 1K is pretty slow.

But again, the name of the game for most of us isn't speed. It's quality, and enjoyment of the process. If speed was the defining factor we wouldn't be burning all that time working with slurry or Naguras when we could whip past it with synthetics and be done in literally half the time.

Edit: Thank you Steel for finding Mainaman's post. That's specifically the one I had in mind, but couldn't remember which thread I saw it in.

Originally Posted by TJB

Update for the noobs.


One last bit of advice for the noobs. Don't even try to use the jnat unless you get a comfortable and excellent shave off the 12k. I recently had a "shave ready" razor come to me off the bay. For shits and giggles I shaved with it and was amazed. I emailed the guy and he swore he used a simple synthetic progression 1, 3, 5, 8 and 10. It was almost as smooth as my jnats coming off a 10! This is what prompted me to spend even more time on the stones esp the 8 and 12 and I shaved off my 12 and honestly I could live with that if I had to it was so good. So the jnat is only putting that laaaast very very bit of keenness on the edge so don't put any pressure on that blade and don't try to take that much metal. Hope all are well and that's my 2 cents for the gents.

Giving honing advise in this forum is extremely difficult, there always another members chiming in with something different or totally off the wall. On this thread we have a newbie giving honing advise to newbies with J-nats etc, from the op last post it is obvious that he wasn't maxing out on synthetics and more then likely not setting a good bevel.I can tell you that after I started honing after a couple months that I believed I was getting good edges, looking back to today is a totally different outcome.
Not to take anything from your enthusiasm about honing, it is a lot of fun to try new things stones and etc. And then going back a few post there discussions about the OP and Gold Dollars razor and that just leave a bad taste in my mouth. Keep up the good work.