Thread: JNAT Honing nirvana for the noob

Originally Posted by Marshal

Well since we want to focus on speed, based on what experience? How about Onimaru's from post 31 in this thread?

My whole post was based on your implying that the two fast hones mentioned were outliers, i.e.: unnaturally fast. You made that statement as if it were fact, when you have no experience with Jnats (that I recall seeing) to back your opinion up. Throwing synthetics into the discussion, especially how fast Lynn Abrams can hone a factory edge, is off topic to the point I was making. Lynn has honed more razors already than I could ever hope to, so comparing his speed on a Norton 4/8 that he has used for years to mine on a Jnat that I have only been honing with for a year is absurd.

Prior to switching to Jnats last year, I spent several years honing with coticules only. Using fast stones for the grunt work and finishing on fine finishers, I got exceptional results with good speed. I get the same with Jnats, but I enjoy the process much more, and the coticules are long gone to pay for my current stones. I do most of my work on a bench sized Shinden Hon Suita, which is very fast and can even finish decently if you want to finesse it. Once I get to the Tomo stage, I finish on either a Nakayama Kan Kiita, an Oozuku Kiita, or a Nakayama Asano Suita - whichever I think will work best for the razor at hand. All three are excellent finishers, and their speed is less relevant because I do all the pre-finishing on a fast stone.

As for my experience with synthetics, I have owned a Norton 4/8, 2 sets of Naniwa SS 1k-5k-8k-12k, and 2 Chosera 1ks at various times. They did their jobs well, but I did not enjoy using them and sold them all off - some on eBay, but most through here.

All of this is based on my real-world honing experience with synthetics, coticules, and Jnats. I hone nearly every day of the year, often experimenting to broaden my knowledge and to test theories. I need no quotes from others to make my points for me.

Since you seem so willing to dismiss my opinion and experience, I can't see having anything further to contribute to this thread.

Synthetics were brought into the conversation much earlier. In fact the very post you first took contention with was entirely based on results with a synthetic stone vs a natural...

That said, I based my comparison of your experience with your Jnats versus my experience with Welsh slates and Arkansas stones. Leaving out what others have said regarding Jnats, you contend that 18 minutes post synthetic 1K is fast. Then 20 minutes including bevel set without touching a synthetic must be blazing, and everyone that's ever called an Arkansas or a Welsh slate 'slow' is patently incorrect.

I do not have the resources to sift through hundreds, or even tens of coticules and/or Jnats. With regard to those two types of stones I have one coticule that I have experimented with, and what I have read from others (yourself included) regarding both. Since you wish to dismiss not only my real world honing experience, but that of others as well - in spite of the fact that reading and extrapolating information from others' experience is a perfectly viable way to obtain knowledge - then you are correct. There is nothing further to discuss.

The only thing I will add is that my times are all based on what I work on - large Sheffield wedges. Unless you are doing the same, then your time comparisons are apples to oranges.

If speed were my only concern, I wouldn't be using straight razors in the first place.

And I have not dismissed anyone's experiences, merely pointed out that I was not dependent upon other's posts in order to participate in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Steve56

I use a synthetic progression usually through 8k then Mikawa koma nagura and tomo nagura (a slurry stone similar to the home). I don't really have to use the 8k, the koma has a lot of grit in it and can erase 5k marks easily. The reason I use synths through either 5k or 8k is to keep the bevels very flat for as long as possible yet still end up with the natural edge for shaving.

Cheers, Steve

I know this is an old post.. How are the bevels flatter with synths ??

I have found better edges going from 1k synth to full Nagura progression , rather than 5/8k synth then Nagura, personaly just finishing with a jnat isn't as good as a full progression ime.. thanks

Originally Posted by JOB15

I know this is an old post.. How are the bevels flatter with synths?

No slurry. Maybe it doesn't mke a difference but the synth progression works for me. I believe Stefan also uses a similar progression so maybe he can share some insight, Shapton Pros to 8k, koma then tomo nagura.

The koma will remove the last of the synthetic striae and any bits of fin, so I've always believed that what came before it doesn't make a lot of difference as far as the striae from the earlier stones. Diamond plate slurry on a decent jnat can take the place of the koma.

Another reason I like synths to 8k is that they're fast and the current generation of mikawa seems slow to me except koma and a lot of current koma is unpleasantly hard. If you can source good quality vintage mikawa, they're quite a bit faster and noticeably softer.

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Marshal

Goes without saying there are outliers. Some coticules perform that way too. But those tend to be exceptional hones, not the rule. From what I've read, the same can apply to Jnats. The really impressive ones are fast, fine, and rare. You want to keep them when you find them.

At any rate the point was less to do with the inherent speed of the stones, and more to do with our affinity for them. People that like synthetics, for whatever reason, will use them more and gain more skill with them. People the enjoy naturals for whatever reason, will use them more and become more skilled in their use. Stands to reason that you will use what you like, and become most proficient with the tool you enjoy employing more often.

That second paragraph hits the nail right on the head. If you enjoy it you will use it more, like always grabbing that favorite old jeans out if the closet. And really that's all honing is about, for personal enjoyment, because if it's just to shave, you would only be honing once or twice a year. If it's for shaving only, the strop is the only thing that gets used daily. To be honest, if you just want to shave you may never need a hone, just send it out. I can tell you I've done the hone buying thing, I have naturals and synthetics. But I don't like honing, just shaving so they don't get used, they just take up room in my toolbox. So bravo Marshall, good paragraph. Tc

Bottom line is, find a system that works for you… then perfect it.

I chased the speed thing, for years, both synthetic and natural, figured out, a handful of strokes, does not make, that much difference. I don’t watch the clock when honing. It takes what it takes…

Take a look at some of Alex’s honing videos, (

theJapanStone

) he often goes from a 1k, usually a King to a Diamond slurry and finishes on thinned Diamond slurry or Tomo, on a variety of Jnats.

With Jnats, as with all things razor related, there are many roads to Rome.

Keep experimenting and Enjoy.

Originally Posted by Steve56

No slurry. Maybe it doesn't mke a difference but the synth progression works for me. I believe Stefan also uses a similar progression so maybe he can share some insight, Shapton Pros to 8k, koma then tomo nagura.

The koma will remove the last of the synthetic striae and any bits of fin, so I've always believed that what came before it doesn't make a lot of difference as far as the striae from the earlier stones. Diamond plate slurry on a decent jnat can take the place of the koma.

Another reason I like synths to 8k is that they're fast and the current generation of mikawa seems slow to me except koma and a lot of current koma is unpleasantly hard. If you can source good quality vintage mikawa, they're quite a bit faster and noticeably softer.

Cheers, Steve

I always went from 10k to Tomo or 5k to some Naguras but it wasn't until I went 1k to Naguras that I started to get the feeling of , for want of abetter phrase "lack of feeling" or "buttery smooth edge"
I cannot remember the last time I had a little wheeper since doing full progressions .

Speed wise I'm getting faster and faster, we have all see the video where whoever that is I cant remember does 2 slurries per Nagura, watered down 3 times each.
I can do one slurry watered down once or not watered down and get to where im going. It is lengthier than synths but I don't mind at all, when I know im creating some thing special I feel I owe it my time.
Of course every one is different and every stone is different .
But I challenge any synthetically honed razor against one of my Natural edges..
Thanks for listening to my ramble