Thread: People who tape their spine, then sell that razor irritate me.

Originally Posted by IanS

You have a razor with a 25 degree angle? I'd honestly like to see that. Is it a very old wedge of some sort?

There is a direct correlation between angle of the blade and cutting ability, so I'm sorry but your experience only proves that with two different blades, at two different angles, you can't find a difference in shave quality. Forgive me for saying it, but arguing that something which undeniably reduces the blades ability to cut can not degrade the quality of the shave seems very pertinacious to me. And I would proffer that there really is no way to tell regardless of how much experience you have, as the change takes time, and I doubt anyone can with a straight face compare particular shaves many years apart. So I'm going to claim that this much is necessarily trusted to theory. And simple knowledge of cutting properties should be enough to convince anyone that a change in blade angle will at the very least change the shave. I personally feel that under almost all circumstances, reducing the prospective sharpness is a step down in shave quality. Others are free the feel the opposite, or feel that the respective traits that are changed are not noticeable to them or else balance each other out.


I suppose it could be tested with some degree of reliability by purchasing 2 identical razors. Something cheap. Gold Dollar would work.

Find two similar specimens (after honing) compare their shave to ensure there is no noticeable distinction. Then deliberately grind the edge of one down several mm. Do the same to the other but leave the spine intact through taping. Then do a single shave, comparing the two. It's not perfect as there may be distinctions that are noticeable further down the blade, but it's as close as we'll get. I'm quite confident the difference, when immediate, will be noticeable.

I'm quite confident that you don't have the requisite experience with straight razors to be proffering and postulating so much. Let this sink in. You Are Wrong. You should stop it. Take care, Sir.

Originally Posted by IanS

And yet you trust the japanese folks who mine stones for chisels, swords and knives to pick out razor stones for you?


Maybe setting a bevel is harder when you tape your razor, in fact I'm fairly sure that it is. But straight razors were clearly designed with the idea in mind that the edge sets itself. That's the whole reason you want spine wear. It maintains that design.

Beveling a knife requires that you perform all your passes with even pressure while holding a fairly significant bit of weight at a constant angle and elevation. Microbeveling is required for multiple kitchen knives and in many kitchens a honer must be able to bevel a knife to a specific angle required for whatever task is ahead of the knife that day. This can be anywhere from 12 to 30. Some Japanese chefs take their knives even below twelve.

The reason a knife-guy shouldn't pick up a razor with no instruction and attempt to bevel it is simple that he'll assume it actually requires his skills. When in fact razors were designed so that honing them requires only a moderately steady hand and a little basic knowledge. Now beveling a warped or damaged blade is another story. But this blade was not warped, and I was not interested in maintaining the damage and simply achieving an edge despite it. I wanted it fixed.


I'm not arguing science. I'm arguing Mechanical design of what is one of the most fundamental devices on earth.

Really impressed with your use of jargon there mate. Perhaps the Japanese are highly regarded for their hones because maybe Iwasaki Kosuke after having seen his father as well as many blacksmiths lose business to the Germans ( due to their fairly inexpensive priced razors but comparable quality ) he took it upon himself to invest his time perfecting the art of steel making. Kosuke researched steel and best hones used for maintaining steel's edge. He apprenticed himself with blacksmiths to immerse himself with the techniques they employed....

If you think this is crock of shit, I encourage you to ask JimR or OLD_SCHOOL. Jim's in touch with Iwasaki's apprentice Mizuouchi Ryuichi while OLD_SCHOOL is Takahashi Norikazu.

Look up Tamahagane, the Japanese culture follow Iwasaki's guideline set forth when it comes to forging Tamahagane swords. Another thing, Japanese razors are honed similar fashion one would a chisel. But I'm not a woodworker so I wouldn't know...

Originally Posted by IanS

All my razors fall in the 10-13 degree range. Go get a wustof kitchen knife. They are honed at 15 degree's. Try shaving with it. Tell me that the shave is of the same quality as your razors.

I would certainly do it if that knife steel is good enough to support a razor edge.
Some of us have shaved with hundreds of razors and have learned that the angle is not all that important.
You don't believe me? Try the edge of a feather blade (the injector type). I would bet 10:1 that none of your edges come even close to it in terms of sharpness and smoothness. The angle ain't 10 degrees.

Originally Posted by IanS

The spines job is to hold the razor level during honing and maintain angle. It never does the latter when taped and when too much pressure is applied it fails to do the former either, because electrical tape compresses VERY easily, that is actually one of the requirements for it's application, it only requires a slightly heavy hand to do edge damage that you likely could not do without deliberate focus on a section of the edge without tape. Using measurements off my Puma, and assuming the Etape can achieve 50% compression (not unrealistic)*, I calculate a divergence in bevel angle of .3088 degrees. Keep in mind this is ALONG the edge. That is, your edge will behave as if warped to such an extent despite the spine being true.

Did I already mention you haven't got the slightest idea what has happened to your razor (glen already explained it).
Now, your numbers may sound grand to you, but I work with numbers for a living, and yours only show me how clueless you are. Your understanding is missing completely a 100-1000 larger effect than the one you're describing. Hint: it's particular to a razor like the one you're looking at and not to a knife.

Stephan, I've said many times I'm referring to the change that occurs over a long period of use. What you say is true, the change due specifically to the presence of the tape at an individual honing disregarding uneven wear is very small. That's why I'm not really concerned with it.

And while there will be variance in wear due to variations in honers, the end result should be extremely close to the original angle.

Your presumption that equal surface area is necessary is mistaken. Disregarding chaff interference, equal pressure, angle and identical surfaces guarantees equal wear for any given point. Calculus applies that across the entire blade (that is in contact) and Geometry guarantees that the angle is therefore maintained. Now the question of maintaining equal pressure raises issues, but even given the disparity in gravitational pressure, due to the hardness of steel and shape of most blades this effect should be minimized (bringing us back to your point about it not being exactly perfect either way).


Richmond, I don't have the required experience to identify that personal impressions can not be generalized universally? Frankly, if you believe than a steeper angled blade is just as sharp as a shallower angled one, all other factors held constant. You're quite simply wrong, no matter how much experience you can put behind your stance. If your opinion is that the reduction in sharpness is insignificant enough that it doesn't affect the quality of the shave, then I'd hope you were mature enough to recognize that opinions, moreover opinions of what others perceptions must be are not drawn from experience at all. Differently angled edges, even at very similar angles, cut very distinctly. The 15 to 25 degree's mentioned is an extreme example. It really boggles my mind that anyone can believe that a ten degree difference in angle does not change a razors cutting ability. In fact it would certainly change it drastically. But that is a very extreme example, far beyond what a razor would ever likely face. Go and push in your lawnmowers blades ten degrees on either side and tell me how well it cuts your grass.

Sired I wasn't commenting on the quality of japanese hones. I've actually been buying a couple myself lately. In doing so I've read through many threads and seen many cases where the seller (usually a miner, carpenter, or merchant that caters to carpenters) was asked to handpick a razor hone.


Gugi. I assure you wustof steel can hold a razor edge perfectly fine.
The effect you're talking about, I assume is flexing? If that's a correct guess, then I'll only say that if you're flexing your razor more than .014 inches while honing, then please never attempt to hone again, ever. If you're flexing it 14 inches while honing, then please get me a membership to your gym.

What angle are feathers? I always assumed they were similar angles to DE and SE blades. (I don't mean to be smart, but DE/SE are rated at included angle, feathers may be as well, so make sure).

I think I will revisit this post when you are 45 IanS. I will be very curious as to your view point in 20 years...if you stick with straights that is.
As the Bob Dylan song goes: "Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

See you in 20!

Ian, we tried, but you are way too knowledgeable we couldn't fool you...
because it is obvious that we want to give you false info here... It is a cruel trick we play on all the newbs here at SRP, to tell them wrong so they take longer and go through more trouble learning to straight shave....

BTW if all your edges are 10-13 degrees you have done something wrong to the spines, razors on an average are at about 16, (Yes we did a thread about it) so if you have 20 razors in the 10-13 range I would genuinely recommend taping the spine to correct the mistakes you have made while honing.... or perhaps have a true Mathematician like Gugi explain how you measure for angle and calculate it correctly...


You sir, are on yer own... I refuse to argue with this any longer...

The words 'Alchemist' used to describe his convex ground razor:

"I dont think the particular geometry of the grind has anything to do with the sharpness of the blade. Hair splitting sharp is hair splitting sharp - isn't it?"


Taping the spine isn't going to do any damage to the edge.

Originally Posted by IanS

Gugi. I assure you wustof steel can hold a razor edge perfectly fine.
The effect you're talking about, I assume is flexing? If that's a correct guess, then I'll only say that if you're flexing your razor more than .014 inches while honing, then please never attempt to hone again, ever. If you're flexing it 14 inches while honing, then please get me a membership to your gym.

You are welcome to look through photos of my razors that are all over this site and you'll know exactly how much flex I'm putting.

Since you think you're good with numbers, please provide the actual force that needs to be exerted on the spine of a taped razor to compress the tape by 20%. The 3M 'scotch' black tape please. And no, fingernail, or pulling the tape is something very different, and does not apply here.
BTW it's really easy to get it done at home, so no excuses that you need specialized equipment either. Just provide that one number.

Can you link me to the product on 3m's site? They only show some kind of photographic tape when I search that.

Originally Posted by IanS

Can you link me to the product on 3m's site? They only show some kind of photographic tape when I search that.

Try searching 3m electrical tape