Thread: C.V Heljestrand

Originally Posted by doc47

I love a good mystery and the history of the CV Heljestand razors certainly falls in the category of mystery. What we are discussing here has been discussed and researched by many over the past 10 or more years. When I say many that includes members on this and all the other razor forums as well as museum curators in Sweden. The consensus is there is no consensus on a thing regarding the issues being discussed.

i have about 30 heljestrand razors. most of them are ecxellent razors. i love them for the outstanding workmanship and their elegant blade shapes. so i am a bit of a fan myself and try to find these razors in different places. a couple of years or so ago, there was a seller on a swedish auction site (the seller had been active for a few months only) who had excellent NOS heljestrands for sale. when i received the first one, i noticed that the sender was a certain Mr. Kindal. needless to say i asked if he was a member of THE kindal family, and, if yes, if he could shed some light on the MK/BK/RK mistery. turns out, he is a grandson of magnus kindal and seems to know about these letters. of course he might be wrong, but in my opinion this is as close to the facts as i can get. but i do agree that a lot of things are still in the dark, like the question of ownership of heljestrand. in this case i rely on the information provided by the kindal shop in paris and some research that was conducted by members of french forums.

as i said in a previous post i'll see if i can get some information about the owners of heljestrand post 1907 from the grandson of MK.

Originally Posted by doc47

Razor size; forgetaboutit! They are all over the place and we can't determine if differences are due to hone wear or manufacturing decisions.

measuring my 30 heljestrands i get this:

all the ones that should be 5/8" wide (3, 4, 7, 8, 24 (5/8" version) and 31; 13 razors total) are between 17 and 18 mm wide.

all the razors that should be 4/8" wide (2, 7 (4/8" version), 9, 24, 30; 12 razors total) are between 14 and 15 mm wide.

all the razors that should be 6/8" wide (6, 10, 22, 32); 4 razors total) are between 19.5 and 20.5 mm wide.

a 3/8" version of a nr 24 is 11 mm wide.

most of my heljestrands have very little hone wear. in no case the difference is more than 1 mm. but then i have 30 specimens "only".

Originally Posted by doc47

One more comment regarding the Kindal razor markings, be it La Duc or Kindal stamped on the blade; these razors are not as highly prized by collectors, nor do they bring higher prices than standard CVH razors at auction. They are viewed as a lesser razor compared to the non-Kindal CVH razors.

yes, this is indeed quite strange: all these Le Duc (quarter h.), Le Prince (half h.) and Royal Kindal (full h.) were quite expensive in 1957. for example: the 9/16 Royal Kindal cost more (SEK 16.65) than the 8/8 nr. 134 (SEK 15.80)! from a shaver's perspective it seems to be wise to spend $ 50 for a Royal Kindal instead of $ 300 for a clumsy and badly proportioned 134. but well...

regards,
hans

I'll have to take your word on the fact that they are of equal quality, I've never shaved with one of the Kindal marked razors. However, I have shaved with many CVH razors sold by the Kindal store in Paris.

The Ivory set is marked MK**31, however the size of each is 15mm to throw us off even more. Yes, vagaries of collector driven markets can create artificial beliefs regarding value and truth be told, I've never run across such a discuss so there is probably no real difference. I only mentioned the matter because if Kindal had been the owner of the brand, it is very doubtful that collectors would under value Kindal branded CVHs.

Originally Posted by gabrielcr78

Now if we lack factory specs or something similar to prove the improvement in steel and treatment from one blade to the other... the next reliable source of information is a hone test and a shave test to compare the no letter, the RK, the BK and the MK.... Lynn said in one of his posts he was still to meet any C.V Heljestrand that would not meet the high standards (i would have to look for the link.. have red too many posts lately)
in the other hand, Hans says that no letters shaves just like any of the ones with letter... i would love to hear if any other members also have one or more different letters (RK, MK, BK or no letters) and could compare honing and shaving tests... and could please share your experiences

sorry for the long post!

Gabe

gabe,

i should have mentioned that i own nr. 2 and MK 2, nr. 24 and MK 24, and nr. 7 and MK 7. i can assure you they do neither differ in workmanship nor in shaving performance. of course, i have no idea if the steel was the same. on the stones they all behave about the same. still, collectors pay a premium for the MK stamp.

regards,
hans

Originally Posted by doc47

I'll have to take your word on the fact that they are of equal quality, I've never shaved with one of the Kindal marked razors.

actually, i don't know if the quality was the same, i don't have any of these kindal-razors. all i was saying is that these razors were expensive compared to other models that get much higher prices today.

Originally Posted by doc47

However, I have shaved with many CVH razors sold by the Kindal store in Paris. The Ivory set is marked MK**31, however the size of each is 15mm to throw us off even more.

could you post a picture of the blade? could it be hone wear? i have two ivory scaled mk 31 and both are 17.5 mm wide.

Originally Posted by doc47

I only mentioned the matter because if Kindal had been the owner of the brand, it is very doubtful that collectors would under value Kindal branded CVHs.

hype. collectors have no idea. me included

regards,
hans

Originally Posted by brightred

i have about 30 heljestrand razors. most of them are ecxellent razors. i love them for the outstanding workmanship and their elegant blade shapes. so i am a bit of a fan myself and try to find these razors in different places. a couple of years or so ago, there was a seller on a swedish auction site (the seller had been active for a few months only) who had excellent NOS heljestrands for sale. when i received the first one, i noticed that the sender was a certain Mr. Kindal. needless to say i asked if he was a member of THE kindal family, and, if yes, if he could shed some light on the MK/BK/RK mistery. turns out, he is a grandson of magnus kindal and seems to know about these letters. of course he might be wrong, but in my opinion this is as close to the facts as i can get. but i do agree that a lot of things are still in the dark, like the question of ownership of heljestrand. in this case i rely on the information provided by the kindal shop in paris and some research that was conducted by members of french forums.

as i said in a previous post i'll see if i can get some information about the owners of heljestrand post 1907 from the grandson of MK.



measuring my 30 heljestrands i get this:

all the ones that should be 5/8" wide (3, 4, 7, 8, 24 (5/8" version) and 31; 13 razors total) are between 17 and 18 mm wide.

all the razors that should be 4/8" wide (2, 7 (4/8" version), 9, 24, 30; 12 razors total) are between 14 and 15 mm wide.

all the razors that should be 6/8" wide (6, 10, 22, 32); 4 razors total) are between 19.5 and 20.5 mm wide.

a 3/8" version of a nr 24 is 11 mm wide.

most of my heljestrands have very little hone wear. in no case the difference is more than 1 mm. but then i have 30 specimens "only".



yes, this is indeed quite strange: all these Le Duc (quarter h.), Le Prince (half h.) and Royal Kindal (full h.) were quite expensive in 1957. for example: the 9/16 Royal Kindal cost more (SEK 16.65) than the 8/8 nr. 134 (SEK 15.80)! from a shaver's perspective it seems to be wise to spend $ 50 for a Royal Kindal instead of $ 300 for a clumsy and badly proportioned 134. but well...

regards,
hans

Hans, if we add your 30 to my current 23 that were posted yesterday, we see the size differences even more clearly. You will see that I have many CVH razors that fall well outside of your 1mm window. I too have purchased at least one razor from Mr. Kindal in Sweden, however, I never asked him about his heritage. I have purchased almost 1/2 of my CVHs from sellers in Sweden and have several good experiences but I've been told one story after another by them about the company and take most of what I hear with a grain of salt. Hans, in the last 3 years or less I've owned nearly 50 CVH razors and most have shown little to no hone wear, in fact I know at least 13 had never been honed outside the factory. The size differences exist and no explanation has been found to my knowledge.

Seems Kindal bought Heljestrand's company in 1907:" La reprise par la famille Kindal se fait en 1907 et les produits sont distribués en France par la boutique Kindal, 33 avenue de l'Opéra à Paris."

Hans here are pictures of my MK*31s that measure 15mm. These were unused razors when I purchased them and honed by my restorer.


I have actually had 3 of the ivory weekend sets, all were NOS; one set was given to a shaving friend, one set given to my restorer and I have kept one set. All 3 sets were 15mm razors. I love shaving with the smaller sized blades.

dan,

thanks for the pictures! i prefer smaller blades as well (the 5/8 nr. 24 and the mk 31 being my favourites). i am surprised to learn that the blade widths vary so much!

regards,
hans

Originally Posted by Kees

Seems Kindal bought Heljestrand's company in 1907:" La reprise par la famille Kindal se fait en 1907 et les produits sont distribués en France par la boutique Kindal, 33 avenue de l'Opéra à Paris."

yep, that's where i got my information from. hard to imagine they made this up.

regards,
hans

Originally Posted by Kees

Seems Kindal bought Heljestrand's company in 1907:" La reprise par la famille Kindal se fait en 1907 et les produits sont distribués en France par la boutique Kindal, 33 avenue de l'Opéra à Paris."

"The business was converted into a Limited Liability Company – under the name of AB C.V. Heljestrand, on the 9th of October 1907. The subscription for shares started on the 1st of January 1908. In 1963 the company was moved to Ã…rjäng in Värmland, close to the Norwegian border, due to an increase in production and to keep costs down. The majority of the masters and machine experts also decided to move with the company to the new location. But the fine metalwork was still made in Eskilstuna for production and technical reasons. The company went bankrupt in the autumn of 1979. In 2009 it was bought by SMP+Cardio."
From the company's records sited abovewe see no indication of a "French-Connection". Was Kinda a major stock holder? I can't explain the statement on the Kindal website, but the CVH Company never mentions it. That seems very strange to me. Grain of salt time...
The company reports these directors for the specified period of time. Still no Kindal mentioned:

Company Director
1 - Johan Olof Heljestrand 1781-1837 (56 yrs) Director from 1808-1837 (Founder of the company)
2 - Nils Fredrik Heljestrand (son of Olof) 1808-1868 (60 yrs) Director from 1837-1846 (director at the age of 29)
3 - Carl Viktor Heljestrand (son of Olof) 1819-1861 (42 yrs) Director from 1846-1861 (director at the age of 27)
4 - Johan Christoffer Heljestrand (son of Olof) 1818-1882 (64 yrs) Director from 1861-1882 (director at the age of 43)
5 - Otto Bernhard Heljestrand (son of Olof) 1824-1902 (78 yrs) Director from 1883-1902 (director at the age of 59)
6 - Mats (Bernhard) Heljestrand (son of Bernhard) Director beginning 1902 (director at the age of 59)