Off-Topic Forum Suspension Disussion

[Bruce]

Wow! I would have suffered Keyboard Stress Syndrome half way through that, not to mention brain glaze. I agree with the concept, but who reads the fine print unless they get paid to do it?

Bruce

[murph]

And besides, if something really offends you just thank your lucky stars you don't have to live next door to the poster.
That's what I do and it makes me feel much more relaxed.

[Wildtim]

I hope the OT forum comes back quickly.

If anything, the suspension is pointless. Over the last couple of months we have had great debates about freedom, government, religion, ... all without major incidents or disturbances.
People from various backgrounds participated without raising problems. And even if there were some disagreements, they were resolved quickly.

The problems from yesterday and today were caused not by those discussions, but because of the reaction of one member to a moderator action.
whether I agree with the moderation or not is besides the point, as is my view on this whole sordid business. I was not part of it and I will not become so.

But ultimately, the OT forum should not be closed because of the disagreement between 1 member and 1 or more moderators and administrator. That would be throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I have become friends with various member here through the OT forum, and we share family issues, the good and the bad. To take that away detracts from the family life in SRP. I consider SRP to be not solely a razor forum, but a gentlemans club as well, with a side room where gentlemen can convene and discuss things among each other.

The reason I'd want the o/t forum back is because even though this is a straight razor site, we are also a community. We form friendships. We like to shoot the s*** with friends. That's what the o/t forum was made for.

These two have expressed my feelings better than I could have.


I know that there are a few members here who get my blood boiling with most every post they make on the issues of the day. Thats why I read them, and respond to them. They are interesting debates to me I think that on a daily level I have much the same routine as these guys many more similarities than differences. I would have a lot of fun meeting them in person. Our views on some issues differ widely so thats whats fun for us to talk about, or shoo thew s*** so to speak.

The thing I think often goes wrong is that when things get a little over the top people stop respecting others, thats expected, but the moderators ARE the authorities here and despite feelings running hot when they moderate it MUST be respected or you don't deserve to be here at all let alone participating in a sensitive discussion. Moderators do take flack for their actions, members do whine about it and run and hide because of it but that life.

It would be easier if this were a real barbershop where the proprietor could just wave his razor a say ENOUGH, and have the topic changed. But since that can't happen yet we must respect the mods as if they were the owners of the shop.

I for one will see my daily post count decline precipitously until the OT forum is back.

[chief]

too bad the forum disappeared...
We should all just act like responsible grown men, because that's what we are...

[Loochie]

I'm new to this forum. The reason I have stayed and become a member are because there is a great group of people here. I was amazed at how friendly everyone was. How they helped each other out. Shared information freely and how everyone got along.

I think the moderators do a great job.

I learned a long time ago never to take anything on the internet personally. I have enough problems in the "real world" without getting all worked up about something that was said in a forum or in a chat etc.

Like I said, I'm a new guy here. Just my opinion.

Off topic or no off topic I don't care. I'm not going anywhere.

Just remember what is bringing everyone here in the first place and I think it will be alright.

[Tony Miller]

While the discussion is great and I appreciate we all get to voice an opinion here, when it comes down to it this is Lynn's call. He has to handle the repercussions of any moderator action or lack of action in often spirited, sometimes hostile cases.

It's his playground and ultimately his choice. I think most of us are here for the long haul no matter the choices made. I am a member of all the various groups but rarely post anywhere but here and if short of time to sit and read, SRP is where I'll be most of the time. Just has a different feel than the other spots.

Tony

[JMS]

While the discussion is great and I appreciate we all get to voice an opinion here, when it comes down to it this is Lynn's call. He has to handle the repercussions of any moderator action or lack of action in often spirited, sometimes hostile cases.

It's his playground and ultimately his choice. I think most of us are here for the long haul no matter the choices made. I am a member of all the various groups but rarely post anywhere but here and if short of time to sit and read, SRP is where I'll be most of the time. Just has a different feel than the other spots.

Tony

I am in agreement with Tony

[azjoe]

Wow! I would have suffered Keyboard Stress Syndrome half way through that, not to mention brain glaze. I agree with the concept, but who reads the fine print unless they get paid to do it?

Bruce

Mostly, just the lawyers... in our case, specifically the one that put that together to ensure that SRP was protected properly and had rules that could satisfy each and every city, state, federal, and international country's laws regarding "objectionable content". I know that he didn't write the "... any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable..." verbiage from scratch since a similar/identical clause appears in the use terms of a HUGE majority of Internet sites. In effect, I'm saying that SRP is not asking it's members to adhere to any "unusual" standards within the internet community.

Anyone involved in running a site eventually receives a "communication" from an irate visitor, a lawyer, a "rights" organization, or their ISP (who is actually forwarding the wrath of a "communication" they received) complaining about "objectionable content"... and then something has to be done to resolve it. To put this into perspective, to my knowledge, we've never had an ISP shut us down for "objectionable content" and we've never been threatened with a lawsuit. But we do get communiques from visitors/members... when things are running smoothly, I get a couple a month, when more controversial topics are popular I get a couple a week and when things get hot a couple a day.

The facts of life are that what's "objectionable" content to one may not even raise an eyebrow to another. Nonetheless, something has to be done to resolve it.

As you might expect, our membership's view of what should be done ranges from those who believe nothing (ie, you should be able to post anything you want) to those that believe any post that can be interpreted as derogatory or offensive should be banned. Nonetheless, something has to be done to resolve it.

So what happens if we resolve it by doing nothing... we just ignore it?

• One possibility is nothing.
• Another possibility is that some members leave (because we did nothing).
• Another possibility is that our ISP shuts down our site.
• Another possibility is that we get sued.

So what happens if we resolve it in a way that's compatible with our ISP and or the person/organization that complained (which most likely means we remove the content)?

• One possibly is that members stay (those that agreed with the complaint).
• Another possibility is that members leave (those that disagreed with the resolution).
• The ISP doesn't shut down our site.
• We don't get sued.

Most sites will immediately remove "offensive content" for those rare occurrences of a threat of shutdown and/or lawsuit. Almost all sites rely on visitor/member traffic to justify their existence and/or defray the cost of running the site (via advertising). So they also will remove the "offensive content" to try to avoid losing the visitor/member that complained and minimize the chance they will file an ISP complaint/lawsuit. And in fact, most site owners/admins/moderators are proactive in policing "objectionable content"... ie, they remove it before there is a complaint since the cost of dealing with a shutdown or lawsuit is very expensive. And that's what SRP has been doing as well.

[JLStorm]

I agree with those that call this a community, no matter how much you love razors and shaving, it isnt a 24/7 thing, especially after it has become part of your daily routine for a few years. Any site can talk about a topic, but people at this site have gotten so close and formed a community through talking about much more than razors. We have supported our members through job losses, sickness, death of close family, births of children, engagements marriages, etc. If that gets taken away then I fear much of the community feel will be lost. We will just be a bunch of guys talking about razors, and there is nothing wrong with that, but it is not what SRP has become, we are a large family bound together by a common interest. We all know there is more to life than razors, and it would really be a shame never to share that with each other.

I am sure there is a way to make this work for everyone, perhaps the OT forum must be policed more closely. Perhaps religion, politics, and a few other topics should be off limits. Hopefully in the coming weeks we can figure something out that works for Lynn and everyone else.

[JLStorm]

Mostly, just the lawyers... in our case, specifically the one that put that together to ensure that SRP was protected properly and had rules that could satisfy each and every city, state, federal, and international country's laws regarding "objectionable content". I know that he didn't write the "... any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable..." verbiage from scratch since a similar/identical clause appears in the use terms of a HUGE majority of Internet sites. In effect, I'm saying that SRP is not asking it's members to adhere to any "unusual" standards within the internet community.

Anyone involved in running a site eventually receives a "communication" from an irate visitor, a lawyer, a "rights" organization, or their ISP (who is actually forwarding the wrath of a "communication" they received) complaining about "objectionable content"... and then something has to be done to resolve it. To put this into perspective, to my knowledge, we've never had an ISP shut us down for "objectionable content" and we've never been threatened with a lawsuit. But we do get communiques from visitors/members... when things are running smoothly, I get a couple a month, when more controversial topics are popular I get a couple a week and when things get hot a couple a day.

The facts of life are that what's "objectionable" content to one may not even raise an eyebrow to another. Nonetheless, something has to be done to resolve it.

As you might expect, our membership's view of what should be done ranges from those who believe nothing (ie, you should be able to post anything you want) to those that believe any post that can be interpreted as derogatory or offensive should be banned. Nonetheless, something has to be done to resolve it.

So what happens if we resolve it by doing nothing... we just ignore it?

• One possibility is nothing.
• Another possibility is that some members leave (because we did nothing).
• Another possibility is that our ISP shuts down our site.
• Another possibility is that we get sued.

So what happens if we resolve it in a way that's compatible with our ISP and or the person/organization that complained (which most likely means we remove the content)?

• One possibly is that members stay (those that agreed with the complaint).
• Another possibility is that members leave (those that disagreed with the resolution).
• The ISP doesn't shut down our site.
• We don't get sued.

Most sites will immediately remove "offensive content" for those rare occurrences of a threat of shutdown and/or lawsuit. Almost all sites rely on visitor/member traffic to justify their existence and/or defray the cost of running the site (via advertising). So they also will remove the "offensive content" to try to avoid losing the visitor/member that complained and minimize the chance they will file an ISP complaint/lawsuit. And in fact, most site owners/admins/moderators are proactive in policing "objectionable content"... ie, they remove it before there is a complaint since the cost of dealing with a shutdown or lawsuit is very expensive. And that's what SRP has been doing as well.

Joe, would there be an effective way to ban specific members for a period of time from the OT forum rather than punishing everyone? I mean after all when someone gets a speeding ticket they dont shut down the whole road. What if we came to agreement on some rules that the community as a whole could live with (cant make everyone happy 100% of the time) and if those rules are violated, rather than shutting the forum down or deleting a thread, simply giving the member (or members) a "time out", and possible thread closure. If the same member was disruptive for a set number of times a more harsh punishment could be implemented.

I have to say that I am a member of several forums, one of which only deals with very controversial subject matter, and has over 52,000 members. They have never been sued, and I find it hard to believe we could even approach the level of controversy that they deal with on a daily bases. Again, I really do not know what was said in this thread that caused the closing of the OT forum, but is it possible we are jumping the gun talking about lawsuits before we bother talking about either more closely enforcing the existing forum rules or developing a few new ones. Yes no matter what we do someone is going to be unhappy, but if it makes the majority happy, I think thats an acceptable outcome.

Just my rather immediate opinion on the matter.