Thread: ONE COTICULE HONING

I tried this method on two razors, first a Henckels that I could never get sharp enough and a Double Arrow that was ok-fairly good.

I had tried the Henckels with a Norton 4k/8k, c12k several times without getting it good enough. Barts method gave me my sharpest blade out of 14 razors!!

On the Double Arrow which was very shavable but not super, Bart's method gave me only slightly better than before results.

I'm new to honing so this might be just my skills getting better (and going to randydance062449's place to get a honing lesson!!, thanks Randy!!), but this did seem to work well for me and I'll add it to my arsenal for the hard to hone edges. I also really like Coticules so this was fun to do and I'll try this on more edges to see what happens.

To be fair i have always got very good shaves with nortons paste etc but i have never had such a smooth shave since i have been using bbw/yellow. I don't realy need to use paste i do acasionaly but it does'nt make much differance after bbw/yellow now it did after 4k 8k.

Originally Posted by pjrage

It would also seem, though, that with enough strokes, it shouldn't matter how narrow or wide the bevel is. It may not hone up as quickly, but if you spend enough time at it, either way should work, right? Similar to taking off the 1mm from a wooden table top. It would take forever, but you COULD do it.

I have been convinced of that for a long time, and in general I still believe that to be true for the most part. But there's one important other consideration that plays a part, imho. Every time you push the razor over the hone, there is a slight detrimental effect on the very tip of the edge. On slurry that effect is very noticeable, but also on any other surface, it is present. At the same time, there is metal removed from the bevel faces and this should overrule the tip deterioration. The razor is sharpened more than it is dulled, at least if you use a surface worthy of the name hone. Try honing on a piece of glass or marble, there is so little sharpening that you'll notice that a keen fragile edge slowly looses instead of gains sharpness. Now, you may ask yourself, what has this theory to do with the width of the bevel. Remember that on a narrow bevel the hone removes (on a submicron scale) a much thicker layer of steel with each stroke than when it has to work a wide bevel. The tip deterioration factor remains pretty much the same. So there is a different ratio between those two.
Take the BBW. I once expected that it would be a great polisher, when used with water, just like its big sister Coticule. I did some experiment. As much as I like the BBW with slurry, with only water it seems to slowly dull the edge instead of only polishing it. And yet, add a couple of layers of tape to the spine and it will cut a secondary bevel. That secondary bevel won't become very wide, since the Blue-with-water looses it's power very soon.

It is a hypothetical theory, and I might be wrong, but for the time being, it explains what I get, and it helps me devising new honing experiments. That's good enough for now, till some deviating experience force me to adjust my thinking.

To reiterate, by altering the bevel width, we not only (exponentially) change the time it takes to achieve our desired goals, but at very narrow bevels we also change the hones sharpening/deteriorating ratio.

I have literally tried thousands of strokes on a Coticule with water, thinking that it would only take enough time to get edge refinement off it. It did not. It seemed just to polish, without taking nor gaining sharpness. With the procedure presented in this thread, I got consederably keener results. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted. I hope others can confirm it. If not, I'll still be a happy honer. And shaver.

Originally Posted by pjrage

So, in the end, isn't it more a matter of which particular bevel angle you like better for your face?

I don't really care that much about bevel angle. They differ, roughly between 15 and 20 degrees on razors, and I could never quite determine a personal preference. I have noticed that some edges tend to be less brittle with an additional layer of tape. Yet I can't feel that during the shave. Only see it with the stereomicroscope and notice better edge longevity. But that's completely beyond the scope of this thread.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by rodb

I tried this method on two razors, first a Henckels that I could never get sharp enough and a Double Arrow that was ok-fairly good.

I had tried the Henckels with a Norton 4k/8k, c12k several times without getting it good enough. Barts method gave me my sharpest blade out of 14 razors!!

On the Double Arrow which was very shavable but not super, Bart's method gave me only slightly better than before results.

I'm new to honing so this might be just my skills getting better (and going to randydance062449's place to get a honing lesson!!, thanks Randy!!), but this did seem to work well for me and I'll add it to my arsenal for the hard to hone edges. I also really like Coticules so this was fun to do and I'll try this on more edges to see what happens.

Rodb, and also Gary,
thanks a lot for trying it. I owe you guys one.

Bart.

Well, this has been quite a read though a very informative one.

My biggest complaint to you Bart is that you have got me excited to try this out but unfortunately I promised the wife no honing until we finish moving into the new house.

I have a few good candidate razors to experiment on and am eager to try your method.

I may have to curse you if this works too well for I think the BBW are a much more attractive stone and would hate to not look at them as much.

Originally Posted by JCitron

Well, this has been quite a read though a very informative one.

My biggest complaint to you Bart is that you have got me excited to try this out but unfortunately I promised the wife no honing until we finish moving into the new house.

I have a few good candidate razors to experiment on and am eager to try your method.

I may have to curse you if this works too well for I think the BBW are a much more attractive stone and would hate to not look at them as much.

Ah, building a house. And liking BBW.
In that case I have a suggestion for you...
Here's a picture of a house, build entirely with...
... Belgian Blue Whetstone from Ardennes Coticule. You could hone a razor on that house. No joke, but a big anyway.

Originally Posted by Bart

Rodb, and also Gary,
thanks a lot for trying it. I owe you guys one.

Bart.

Thanks for the experiments with Coticules. The more tools and methods the better for us.

I bought two more razors at an antique store today and I'll try this method on them. I'll post the results later today or tomorrow.

Rod

Originally Posted by Bart

I have been convinced of that for a long time, and in general I still believe that to be true for the most part. But there's one important other consideration that plays a part, imho. Every time you push the razor over the hone, there is a slight detrimental effect on the very tip of the edge. On slurry that effect is very noticeable, but also on any other surface, it is present. At the same time, there is metal removed from the bevel faces and this should overrule the tip deterioration. The razor is sharpened more than it is dulled, at least if you use a surface worthy of the name hone. Try honing on a piece of glass or marble, there is so little sharpening that you'll notice that a keen fragile edge slowly looses instead of gains sharpness. Now, you may ask yourself, what has this theory to do with the width of the bevel. Remember that on a narrow bevel the hone removes (on a submicron scale) a much thicker layer of steel with each stroke than when it has to work a wide bevel. The tip deterioration factor remains pretty much the same. So there is a different ratio between those two.
Take the BBW. I once expected that it would be a great polisher, when used with water, just like its big sister Coticule. I did some experiment. As much as I like the BBW with slurry, with only water it seems to slowly dull the edge instead of only polishing it. And yet, add a couple of layers of tape to the spine and it will cut a secondary bevel. That secondary bevel won't become very wide, since the Blue-with-water looses it's power very soon.

It is a hypothetical theory, and I might be wrong, but for the time being, it explains what I get, and it helps me devising new honing experiments. That's good enough for now, till some deviating experience force me to adjust my thinking.

To reiterate, by altering the bevel width, we not only (exponentially) change the time it takes to achieve our desired goals, but at very narrow bevels we also change the hones sharpening/deteriorating ratio.

I have literally tried thousands of strokes on a Coticule with water, thinking that it would only take enough time to get edge refinement off it. It did not. It seemed just to polish, without taking nor gaining sharpness. With the procedure presented in this thread, I got consederably keener results. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted. I hope others can confirm it. If not, I'll still be a happy honer. And shaver.


I don't really care that much about bevel angle. They differ, roughly between 15 and 20 degrees on razors, and I could never quite determine a personal preference. I have noticed that some edges tend to be less brittle with an additional layer of tape. Yet I can't feel that during the shave. Only see it with the stereomicroscope and notice better edge longevity. But that's completely beyond the scope of this thread.

Best regards,
Bart.

Bart, I have no idea whether your theory is correct or not, but that makes perfect sense to me. I love how technical you are, it really jives with me

So, you are removing steel so fast from the bevel (because the PSI is higher due to the narrow bevel and same pressure) that the edge/tip is "damaged" less. So this assumes that the damage to the tip, regardless of bevel angle or width, is roughly the same per stroke. Makes sense. I'm wondering, though, might you be able "overhone" the second bevel here due to this same theory? Not your typical overhoning as the word is commonly used around here to mean an edge that is so thin and brittle that it will deteriorate very quickly, but more of a "you've done so man strokes that you've passed the optimal/maximum keenness point?" That is, it seems that there would be a point where the growing width of the secondary bevel is starting to mean that the same pressure is removing less steel, but the tip "damage" we are assuming is roughly constant, so you are basically starting to remove some keenness after the certain optimal point. I hope that makes sense. My intuition tells me that this may be the case, that as you start to widen that second bevel up, this will happen. So, there must be some optimal secondary bevel width. But I guess I also doubt that it is noticeable as long as you don't overdo it so much that the second bevel width starts to approach the first bevel. I hope I explained what I'm thinking well enough.

I think your theory also explains why "less is more" in general while honing.

And that house made out of BBWs!!??? Holy expensive (but gorgeous) house batman!

Question about the coticule slurry limiting the keeness-- if it is the case that dragging the edge into the slurry has a dulling effect on the leading edge (in addition to the honing effect on the bezel), why wouldn't reverse honing (leading with the spine vs. the edge) improve keeness in the slurry?

-Chief

Originally Posted by gary haywood

My second atempt on same razor dovo tortiose. This time bart i have took my time. realy dulled on glass jar razor would not shave leg arm hair.Just glided over it. This time i did normal x pattern because its more comfortable for me i don't mind if it takes longer i used one of howards coticules it pinish shades in it and it cuts a little quiker than my other 3. I did 100 pases with pressure . tested on leg hair it was grabing but not shaving good i did another 100 tested now shaving i did another 75 and shaving leg hair realy good better than the first attempt big differance. I then refreshed slurry lighter did 40 laps light as my coti is 5x3. i then dryed razor added one layer of tape waterd slurry down more watery and did 40 light ones then 75 on clean water i did no tpt. Stroped on linen 40 and 40 litigo 40 cowhide. I took a hair of my leg very fine if my razors pass on leg hair i no there good they always pass on coarser chest.

I am not just saying this but hht on leg exallant and chest hair a dodle to pass of coticule that easy thats good only problem is i had shave this morning when i shave i will post result i can tell this razors egde will be good how good i don't no, even runing razor 2 mil above arm it poped very well never achieved that before.

If it shaves well bart how would i refresh would i just start on the slurry from beging oviously not with pressure as bevel will be good maybe just light slurry then tape again for 50 or so.

I have just had shave this morning with barts method the method i did was the same except a thew more laps and i did'nt do back and forth i did x pattern with pressure. The shave was exallant the method worked i will use it again the shave was on one day growth going round the chin was no problem for me that can be a problem if a razor is'nt quite there this ws my second atempt first one was'nt keen enough i no why ,arm hair stage could of been better this time i made sure razor shaved arm hair realy well as could be. thanks to bart it does work if i can do it any one can i did 300 laps to get bevel to shave arm hair i reckon 200 was enough the whole process from dulling to stroping took me 30 minutes thats not to bad. it can take me longer on my 1200 4k 8k bbw yellow. Time is not a problem to me as i enjoy honing.

If bart could advice me on refreshing the razors used with this method i have a rough idea but your advice would be good?
And also if i have a razor that just carn't get up to par.If the bevel has been set already on 1k throught to 4k 8k could i just add 1 layer of tape and then do 30 misty slurry then 50 plain water thanxs gary