Thread: ONE COTICULE HONING

Bart i supose i could do your previous method starting on slurry untill shaving arm hair diluting it down for say another 40 laps then add tape and do 30 on light slurry /50 laps water. would that work? This way i can use my normal stroke ie rolling etc more pressure or less.

Originally Posted by gary haywood

Bart i supose i could do your previous method starting on slurry untill shaving arm hair diluting it down for say another 40 laps then add tape and do 30 on light slurry /50 laps water. would that work? This way i can use my normal stroke ie rolling etc more pressure or less.

Sure, I only introduced the b&f stroking to speed up the proces, after several people suggested that it would otherwise take them too long.
The important part is that you complete the inital bevel before applying the tape, how you get there, doesnt really matter.

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

i was hoping will get answer yes or no not both?
Now when you round sharp edge of the wood sandpaper does work faster and then slows but not because of the surface of the wood because sandpaper looses it is quality.
I will stop in here .
Again was a good discussion lets give people chance and let them try your method and come back leave feedback . I hope i am wrong .

respectfully
Sham

I see now that you disagree with what I consider the cornerstone of this honing procedure.
In that case, this whole thing must indeed sound completely absurd to you.
But I have to disagree. Working a narrow strip of steel makes a big difference. In fact, the very concept of hollow ground razors relies on this principle. Tim, another Belgian member of SRP, became a friend after I met him here. He owns a Dubl'Duck Goldedge. Last time we met he told me how easily this razor takes a keen edge on just his Coticule with water, while he finds it much more challenging to achieve good keenness on his other razors. I don't doubt that the excellent steel and temper of the Dubl'Duck contributes to it taking such a great edge, but I also noticed that this razor is ground remarkably thin and carries a very narrow bevel. I have witnessed the same great responsiveness to the Coticule-with-water on other razors with a very narrow bevel. I can't regrind all my razors, but I can add a layer of tape, late in the honing progression, and cut a narrow secondary bevel for the creating of the final edge on the Coticule with water.
Thats is the basic idea about my procedure.
About my sandpaper analogy: I'm not talking about wearing out the sandpaper. With fresh 600 grit sandpaper, it's impossible to sand 1 mm deep into a wooden table top. If you use the same piece of sandpaper on the hard edges of the same table top, you can get that 1 mm of stock removal in no time. It all comes down on how much the pressure disperses over the surface to be abraded. On razors we can't rely on much pressure, because the edge will flex. Something we must cetainly avoid during the final stages of honing. Narrowing down the contact surface by introducing a slightly altered bevel angle, lends the Coticule-with-water the bite it lacks on wider bevels to achieve a meaningful edge refinement.
I am absolutely certain that this is a sound theory, and that it could at least pass as a worthy hypothesis for the experiments I ran, prior to posting this thread. This procedure works for me in practice, and I'm anxious to find out if it works for others as well. Many of us own Coticules and like honing on them. I can't really see no wrong in trying to get the best out of them. Maybe that someone else can translate the basic principles behind my ideas in a more understandable English. I really did my very best.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by Bart

I see now that you disagree with what I consider the cornerstone of this honing procedure.
In that case, this whole thing must indeed sound completely absurd to you.
But I have to disagree. Working a narrow strip of steel makes a big difference. In fact, the very concept of hollow ground razors relies on this principle. Tim, another Belgian member of SRP, became a friend after I met him here. He owns a Dubl'Duck Goldedge. Last time we met he told me how easily this razor takes a keen edge on just his Coticule with water, while he finds it much more challenging to achieve good keenness on his other razors. I don't doubt that the excellent steel and temper of the Dubl'Duck contributes to it taking such a great edge, but I also noticed that this razor is ground remarkably thin and carries a very narrow bevel. I have witnessed the same great responsiveness to the Coticule-with-water on other razors with a very narrow bevel. I can't regrind all my razors, but I can add a layer of tape, late in the honing progression, and cut a narrow secondary bevel for the creating of the final edge on the Coticule with water.
Thats is the basic idea about my procedure.
About my sandpaper analogy: I'm not talking about wearing out the sandpaper. With fresh 600 grit sandpaper, it's impossible to sand 1 mm deep into a wooden table top. If you use the same piece of sandpaper on the hard edges of the same table top, you can get that 1 mm of stock removal in no time. It all comes down on how much the pressure disperses over the surface to be abraded. On razors we can't rely on much pressure, because the edge will flex. Something we must cetainly avoid during the final stages of honing. Narrowing down the contact surface by introducing a slightly altered bevel angle, lends the Coticule-with-water the bite it lacks on wider bevels to achieve a meaningful edge refinement.
I am absolutely certain that this is a sound theory, and that it could at least pass as a worthy hypothesis for the experiments I ran, prior to posting this thread. This procedure works for me in practice, and I'm anxious to find out if it works for others as well. Many of us own Coticules and like honing on them. I can't really see no wrong in trying to get the best out of them. Maybe that someone else can translate the basic principles behind my ideas in a more understandable English. I really did my very best.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I think you are explaining it very clearly. Your sandpaper to wood analogy makes sense to me, and it does seem that it's the amount of pressure being dispersed over what surface area that is the key. Sure, you can't lay the sandpaper flat on a wooden tabletop and sand down 1mm, but you could easily take 1mm off the hard edges (beveling). Additionally, it would seem that if you were to wrap it around a thin object (say, a metal ruler), you could sand a 1mm deep groove or ditch into the same wooden table top pretty easily (I haven't tested this, but I think it should be easier than flat sanding 1mm from the table top, for the same reason that sanding the corners of the table is easy). It seems it's all about the pressure and surface area, as you say.

So, if you apply this theory to razors and bevels, with the pressure being equal (since we are supposed to be using light pressure (weight of the blade) no matter the size of the bevel), it would seem that you will remove more steel more quickly with a narrower bevel, because the same amount of pressure is distributed to less total surface area with the narrower bevel.

It would also seem, though, that with enough strokes, it shouldn't matter how narrow or wide the bevel is. It may not hone up as quickly, but if you spend enough time at it, either way should work, right? Similar to taking off the 1mm from a wooden table top. It would take forever, but you COULD do it. So, in the end, isn't it more a matter of which particular bevel angle you like better for your face?

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

going on.
I have not seen or met anyone (except you) to say
They are getting great shave off the coticule without using pastes or escher.
Coticule is wildly available and affordable . That is why so many people has it and when they start to shave every single of them(including myself) byes one. Later when they get Nakayama , Escher's etc they realize oops how much differences amoung them.
Now doesn't matter how you do or what you do COTICULE S ability to make blade sharp is limited to it is maximum capability . Bring to whole laboratories OR do million ways - coticule ill not change or to the job EScher or Nakayama does.
Thank you


Respectfully
sham.

Sham, check out Bart's response to my post here. IME the coticule will give a slightly keener edge than a Norton 8K. There is nothing wrong with that. Not putting words in Bart's mouth and than quoting him but I think the fact that barbers and straight razor users in general have used the coticule to sharpen their razors for hundreds of years is a large part of Bart's love of the coticule. I know I share that feeling and the fact that each one is somewhat unique adds to the attraction. If I was a native of the venerable coticules homeland as is Bart how much more would I love the rocks. He is trying to take it to the next level and get all that can be gotten out of it. You and I should be doing the same with our Eschers instead of being stuck to the keyboard.

I for one have had and get great shaves of yellow on its own. i admit with to heavier slurry not so good diluting defanatly worked for me if it does'nt i go bbw then yellow i have a fairly strong stubble. i shave at least 20 people aweek and my own tecnique is exallant i teach people to shave with straights and one particular guy i no came to see me we honed a blade up he shaved with it and the sound was totaly diferant to be onest it sounded terrble. I shaved with it and the diferance was massive because of my technique it glided round my face. He said it seems to be shaving you ok mainly down to tecnique my shaving angle and griping my skin and his angle was to steep he could'nt grip properly because of slipery soap not staring in right areas. you can shave of a coticule for mr average like my self i have tryed this method once and good shave i will try again to see if i can get even better .

My second atempt on same razor dovo tortiose. This time bart i have took my time. realy dulled on glass jar razor would not shave leg arm hair.Just glided over it. This time i did normal x pattern because its more comfortable for me i don't mind if it takes longer i used one of howards coticules it pinish shades in it and it cuts a little quiker than my other 3. I did 100 pases with pressure . tested on leg hair it was grabing but not shaving good i did another 100 tested now shaving i did another 75 and shaving leg hair realy good better than the first attempt big differance. I then refreshed slurry lighter did 40 laps light as my coti is 5x3. i then dryed razor added one layer of tape waterd slurry down more watery and did 40 light ones then 75 on clean water i did no tpt. Stroped on linen 40 and 40 litigo 40 cowhide. I took a hair of my leg very fine if my razors pass on leg hair i no there good they always pass on coarser chest.

I am not just saying this but hht on leg exallant and chest hair a dodle to pass of coticule that easy thats good only problem is i had shave this morning when i shave i will post result i can tell this razors egde will be good how good i don't no, even runing razor 2 mil above arm it poped very well never achieved that before.

If it shaves well bart how would i refresh would i just start on the slurry from beging oviously not with pressure as bevel will be good maybe just light slurry then tape again for 50 or so.

I would like to say a few things here,

One, Bart, Thank You!!! for taking on a hard row to hoe...
You are trying to show a consistent way of using a stone and more power to you...
For those of you that haven't been around for a long time this happened a few years back when certain "rebels" talked about using progressive honing techniques instead of pyramids...
The main point is, can you make it repeatable and consistent???

As more people that own Coticules are trying these methods, more ideas will be introduced and techniques will be adapted, or it will die out because it will not work except for a master at that stone...

The one side honing technique has actually been around for quite awhile too, doing laps on one side of the razor than switching to the other, in fact look for Toxik's vid, he shows that exact same technique...

The Japanese Honing techniques have also been around for years for razors and longer in general. Some people call it different names but it is still the same technique.. I use it myself quite often in conjunction with Lynn's circle techniques on problem bevels....

As to setting bevels, now this is something I actually know quite a bit about, first off it is not a race, it is only about accuracy and getting a consistent sharp edge from heel to toe... Amazingly simple thing, that is the bane of all newbies to honing...
Now I could actually tell you what the fastest way to get a bevel set is, I have tried just about every stone out there for doing it, and just about every technique you can think of, but really fastest doesn't matter to anybody other than a Honemiester that is looking at a rack of razors that need honing in front of him...Those of you that are only honing for yourself can take all the time you want to get a proper bevel set, but here is the problem with that as I see it... A newbie to honing doesn't take all the time in the world, and as soon as any part of that blade feels sharp they move to the next phase of the honing process and that is where the whole thing falls apart...The one thing that everyone agrees on, is without a proper bevel not one of these systems work...

Anyway thanks again to Bart for getting this all in writing and pics and vids...
The rest of you, hey give it time, it will either work into another method of consistent honing, or it will be left to only the masters of the Coticule to play with....

end of my .02 cents of rambling

Gary, forgive me for giving my unsolicited opinion. If all that you have is a coticule than that is what you have to do. OTOH, if you had a 1k stone or better yet a DMT D8E 1200 you would have had the bevel set and been done with a 1/4 of the time and effort. If you are doing it for the experience that is fine too. Different strokes for different folks.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Gary, forgive me for giving my unsolicited opinion. If all that you have is a coticule than that is what you have to do. OTOH, if you had a 1k stone or better yet a DMT D8E 1200 you would have had the bevel set and been done with a 1/4 of the time and effort. If you are doing it for the experience that is fine too. Different strokes for different folks.

I do own 1k norton and 1200 dmt pluus 4k 8k plus blue and yellows but i have always wanted to achieve a shave ready razor on the one hone belgium yellow so it for experiance realy as ilike trying differant method it does seem the long way round though. plus i like honing