Thread: Obamacare

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The question I pose to all of you who think Govt is too big and bloated and has too many regulations is how did it get that way and why did it get that way?????

James Madison
Stated to an unidentified correspondent — 1833 AD
"It has been said that all Government is an evil. It would be more proper to say that the necessity of any Government is a misfortune. This necessity however exists; and the problem to be solved is, not what form of Government is perfect, but which of the forms is least imperfect."

And now, for a conundrum:

James Madison
Federalist No. 51 — 1788 AD
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place, oblige it to control itself."

In simple speak, Everybody in charge stole for their pet project, or were just derelict in duty. When an independent audit comes about, the bloated mismanagement becomes glaringly apparent. Remember when you trusted and obeyed ,the policeman, or how about the local priest??
Do you trust the bank? Our government is as of today the Central Bank for the globe. China is starting their own this is going to get interesting.
Once the Dollar isnt the international unit the downward spiral will intensify.

Why does everyone complain when they have to pay for health care? You even have to "pay" in "free" systems. One way or another, whether it's taxes, poor quality, premiums, lower wage, ect...

My health care prices went up but I work. My neighbor who is trying to raise a family doesn't work and her healthcare went down. I consider that a win!!

Originally Posted by Steel

Why does everyone complain when they have to pay for health care? You even have to "pay" in "free" systems. One way or another, whether it's taxes, poor quality, premiums, lower wage, ect...

Absolutely true that you pay one way or the other. The question I would ask about my system is "Am I getting good value for the money I spend on health care either paid directly out of pocket or through taxes?". This is what Forbes thinks U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries - Forbes .

It does not matter how you get a good end result be it through public, private or a mix of those means. It matters that you get a good end result period.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

It does not matter how you get a good end result be it through public, private or a mix of those means. It matters that you get a good end result period.

That's only if you're a pragmatist. If you're an ideologue the means by which you get the result is the most important because you believe without question that your ideology is 'right' and always produces the best results. Even if you admit that in a particular case it hasn't it's only because it's not pure enough and you double down rather than reevaluating the validity of your beliefs.

Originally Posted by gugi

That's only if you're a pragmatist. If you're an ideologue the means by which you get the result is the most important because you believe without question that your ideology is 'right' and always produces the best results. Even if you admit that in a particular case it hasn't it's only because it's not pure enough and you double down rather than reevaluating the validity of your beliefs.

And as I see it, that's what the left has done with Obamacare. In spite of it not being wanted or accepted by the populace, in spite of it being a total mystery to everyone in Congress at the time of signing, it was rammed through because it fit the ideology that ruled at that moment in time.

Originally Posted by gugi

That's only if you're a pragmatist. If you're an ideologue the means by which you get the result is the most important because you believe without question that your ideology is 'right' and always produces the best results. Even if you admit that in a particular case it hasn't it's only because it's not pure enough and you double down rather than reevaluating the validity of your beliefs.

No arguments there.

Now there you have what is wrong with the world in general. Ideologues, in my view, tend to be fanatics/extremists of which ISIS is but one classic example of when rigid ideology is carried several steps past sanity.

Bob

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

as I see it, that's what the left has done

Those evil leftists, always mucking things up. If only everyone was right like us! Please consider joining our humble group, The Conservative Likers - Straight Razor Place Forum

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

And as I see it, that's what the left has done with Obamacare. In spite of it not being wanted or accepted by the populace, in spite of it being a total mystery to everyone in Congress at the time of signing, it was rammed through because it fit the ideology that ruled at that moment in time.

Nah, that's just hyperbolae. The Obama people usually point out that the bill was modeled on an old proposal from the pretty conservative Heritage foundation. They gave up on having a public option alongside the private insurers.

It's all political posturing and it's pretty obvious if you consider that once the republican party got a majority in both houses of congress their urgency on passing the 'repeal Obamacare' bill suddenly disappeared. They used to do it once a week until few months ago when they knew it's an empty gesture to the base.

There are supposedly number of better bills they have to replace Obamacare with, except that nobody talks even broadly about their details. All they say is that we'll get cheaper and better insurance and nobody will be forced to buy it.
To me it sounds too good to be true and spending zero effort on explaining how it's going to work and convincing people it's good and possible only confirms my suspicions that it's all demagoguery.

The Right are masters of criticizing and tearing down whatever the left (especially Obama) create. The problem is their solution is "trust us we will sort it out". Thats just code for we have no solution and we go back to the old way which is no way. As long as it puts more money into the pockets of the rich it's good for them.

Originally Posted by gugi

Nah, that's just hyperbolae. The Obama people usually point out that the bill was modeled on an old proposal from the pretty conservative Heritage foundation. They gave up on having a public option alongside the private insurers.

It's all political posturing and it's pretty obvious if you consider that once the republican party got a majority in both houses of congress their urgency on passing the 'repeal Obamacare' bill suddenly disappeared. They used to do it once a week until few months ago when they knew it's an empty gesture to the base.

There are supposedly number of better bills they have to replace Obamacare with, except that nobody talks even broadly about their details. All they say is that we'll get cheaper and better insurance and nobody will be forced to buy it.
To me it sounds too good to be true and spending zero effort on explaining how it's going to work and convincing people it's good and possible only confirms my suspicions that it's all demagoguery.

So are you telling me that the population DID want it in spite of the poll numbers that said (and continue to say) otherwise? Are you saying that everyone DID read the bill before it was passed and that Pelosi's "we need to pass it to see what's in it" statement was again false? And are you telling me that we didn't do this based on ideology? I don't care what the bill was modeled after. We probably have a plan to invade Jamaica on the books somewhere. That has little to do with anything.