Thread: Fifth Annual Israeli Apartheid Week, March 1-7, 2009

Here's an article about the blockade of Gaza that's worth reading:

The pasta, paper and hearing aids that could threaten Israeli security


Even if you accepted that Israel has the right to prevent the entry of materials that could be used to attack it, it is obviously going too far when it prohibits macaroni, tomato paste and a water filtration plant.

Israel is going out of its way to punish the Palestinians so that they can say, "See, they hate us! How can we negotiate with them?"

If the Islamist terrorists put down their arms, there would be no more fighting;
If Israel put down its arms, there would be no more Israel.

Bob

Originally Posted by pavelaw

If the Islamist terrorists put down their arms, there would be no more fighting;
If Israel put down its arms, there would be no more Israel.

Bob

There is a slight risk of that but Israel is sitting on a time bomb and, if it doesn't do something to defuse it, there won't be an Israel in either case. I think that Israel has 20 years left, if it continues on its present path. As Ahmadinejad said, the Soviet Union changed regimes and the zionist government in Israel can, too (he didn't say "wiped off the map"). There are, by now, about as many Palestinians between the sea and the river as there are Jews and, in twenty years, there will be more. The two-state solution is dead (Israel killed it) so the only choice left is one state for all its citizens. If that happens, we may see a modern democracy in Israel, but it won't be a "Jewish state" anymore. So, if you want to see Israel continue on its present path, fine. The end result will be the same, only more violent.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

There is a slight risk of that but Israel is sitting on a time bomb and, if it doesn't do something to defuse it, there won't be an Israel in either case. I think that Israel has 20 years left, if it continues on its present path. As Ahmadinejad said, the Soviet Union changed regimes and the zionist government in Israel can, too (he didn't say "wiped off the map"). There are, by now, about as many Palestinians between the sea and the river as there are Jews and, in twenty years, there will be more. The two-state solution is dead (Israel killed it) so the only choice left is one state for all its citizens. If that happens, we may see a modern democracy in Israel, but it won't be a "Jewish state" anymore. So, if you want to see Israel continue on its present path, fine. The end result will be the same, only more violent.

What you say in response to my post is a non sequitor... and it is not accurate. Two state solutions have been offered to the Palestinians time and again since Camp David. Even now, there are many options for a two state solution. It is the perfidy of Iran's proxies, Hamas and Hizbullah, both internationally recognized as terrorist organizations, that stands in the way of peace.

Bob

Originally Posted by pavelaw

What you say in response to my post is a non sequitor... and it is not accurate. Two state solutions have been offered to the Palestinians time and again since Camp David. Even now, there are many options for a two state solution. It is the perfidy of Iran's proxies, Hamas and Hizbullah, both internationally recognized as terrorist organizations, that stands in the way of peace.

Bob

The devil is in the details. If you would take a close look at what was actually offered to the Palestinians, not a contiguous country, but a series of Bantustans chopped up by Jewish settlements and Jewish only highways, you wouldn't have accepted it either. Israel is so much stronger than the Palestinians that it could have had peace anytime it wanted. One thing that we could both probably agree on is that the situation cannot remain the way it is for much longer. The Gaza massacre was a turning point and the world will never look at Israel in the same way again.

I just wish they could stop launching missiles at each other till my girlfriend gets home from Israel ....

Originally Posted by Chimensch

One thing that we could both probably agree on is that the situation cannot remain the way it is for much longer.

agreed. My theory (and my fifty bucks, in the office pool where I work) is that Israel will wait until one of the crappy palestinian rockets hits an orphanage or something, will cry "think of the children!" and then have a fullscale land invasion of Gaza.

It's pretty clear they want to invade anyhow, they're just waiting for an excuse to invade that will ease UN pressure not to invade. children getting killed would be an awesome excuse for genocide.


time will tell if my theory is right. some of the other theories in the office pool are pretty interesting as well, can't wait to see who takes the jackpot!

Originally Posted by jockeys

agreed. My theory (and my fifty bucks, in the office pool where I work) is that Israel will wait until one of the crappy palestinian rockets hits an orphanage or something, will cry "think of the children!" and then have a fullscale land invasion of Gaza.

It's pretty clear they want to invade anyhow, they're just waiting for an excuse to invade that will ease UN pressure not to invade. children getting killed would be an awesome excuse for genocide.


time will tell if my theory is right. some of the other theories in the office pool are pretty interesting as well, can't wait to see who takes the jackpot!

Yeah, I think you're pretty much right on. I'd love to hear about those other theories, too.

Chimench wrote:

One thing that we could both probably agree on is that the situation cannot remain the way it is for much longer. The Gaza massacre was a turning point and the world will never look at Israel in the same way again.

I do not agree that there was a "Gaza massacre" or your statement about the way the world looks at Israel. As to the former, the official tabulations are not yet settled, but it is now appearing that there were some 700 Palestinian dead over the 23 days of fighting and over 2,000 Israeli sorties. Of the dead, it appears that the vast majority were Hamas fighters; we do not yet have a clear tabulation of Palestinian civilian dead. Everyone with a conscience regrets all innocent Palestinian deaths; they were, however, directly caused by Hamas hiding behind women, children and civilians and by shooting from and storing weapons in civilian places. That was, and remains, the avowed tactic of Hamas and other terrorist organizations. Keep in mind, that in WW II, the Nazis put their Gestapo headquarters next to a Danish orphanage in Copenhagen. A stray Allied bomb hit the orphanage and killed 85 innocent Danish orphans. The Allies were not considered to be murderers or anything of the sort, nor were the poor children targeted. Such has happened throughout history in warfare. Never before in history, however, has a people or an army tried so hard to keep down civilian deaths than did the IDF in Gaza-- always at their own peril. It is an unfortunate fact of war that some innocent civilians will be killed. Israel has always paid reparations for such occurrences.

As to the second point, the non-prejudiced world recognizes that after years of missile attacks, the provocations of Hamas merited this sort of response. No country would allow itself to be rocketed and mortared daily, sometimes with no damage or deaths and other times with human casualties, for as long as did Israel. President Obama, himself, referred to it in his speeches. Every sovereign country has the right and duty to defend itself from attacks like this, and there is no country that would not respond.

Much has been made by Palestinians and their sympathizers of a "disproportionate response." However, there is no such philosophy or mandate in the entire world's history of warfare. For instance, fewer than 2,200 Americans were killed during the Pearl Harbor attack by the Japanese, yet the US firebombed all of Japan's big cities-- intending to kill as many citizens as possible-- sometimes killing over 100,000 in a day or a night. Then, the two atomic bombs were dropped on Japanese civilians, killing another quarter of a million (once radiation took its toll). The Americans and British bombed Cologne, Berlin, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Postdam and other large German cities-- also intending to kill as many civilians as possible-- and again, killing over 100,000 in a single raid. Germany was bombed day and night. The German bombing of London was nowhere as severe and nowhere as many British were killed in London. The Allied forces were considered to be heroes for all of these bombings.

In view of American and British responses in similar circumstances, above, and much more to which I can direct you, the IDF response was measured and caused the least possible collateral damage under the special circumstances of Gaza.

Bob

Pavelaw,

The fatal flaw in your argument is that you attempt to rely on history, facts, and logic.

Oh, I do find there to be some possible errors in your statement. The "vast majority" of those killed were Hamas fighters? I think this might be an overstatement. If hiding among civilians, I think this would be pretty hard to achieve, though. Please do correct me if I am wrong.