Thread: Fifth Annual Israeli Apartheid Week, March 1-7, 2009

Originally Posted by pavelaw

I do not agree that there was a "Gaza massacre" or your statement about the way the world looks at Israel. As to the former, the official tabulations are not yet settled, but it is now appearing that there were some 700 Palestinian dead over the 23 days of fighting and over 2,000 Israeli sorties.

What is your source for saying only 700 Palestinians were killed? Most reports say over 1300.

As for the rest, Hamas and the Palestinians are not comparable to either Japan or Nazi Germany.

I've got two questions about this whole discussion.

First, why is it when Israel has missles fired into it's cities, or at other times have enemy fighters cross the border to kidnap soldiers, when Israel retaliates they're made out to be the bad ones.

Second, why do some people seem to think Jews and Israelis are the same people and agree on everything?

Originally Posted by Thehedgie

I've got two questions about this whole discussion.

First, why is it when Israel has missles fired into it's cities, or at other times have enemy fighters cross the border to kidnap soldiers, when Israel retaliates they're made out to be the bad ones.

Second, why do some people seem to think Jews and Israelis are the same people and agree on everything?

You are going to get very, very VERY varied answers to these questions depending on who pipes up. I don't have time at the moment to write what i would consider a reasonable response.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

You are going to get very, very VERY varied answers to these questions depending on who pipes up. I don't have time at the moment to write what i would consider a reasonable response.

Ahhh, I look forward to reading your answer when you have the time.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

What is your source for saying only 700 Palestinians were killed? Most reports say over 1300.

As for the rest, Hamas and the Palestinians are not comparable to either Japan or Nazi Germany.

The source of casualties is the IDF web site.

I do not equate "ordinary" Palestinians with anyone, Japanese, German or otherwise. I am sure there are, as with all people, good and bad ones among the Palestinians. Hamas, on the other hand, is a recognized terrorist group and to me, they are equal to the worst. There is no place in today's world for religious fanatics who deliberately murder innocent women, children and adults... who indiscriminately try to kill as many people as possible... and who hide behind innocents for their protection. Hamas, I believe, would sacrifice all the Palestinians for their idealism. Evil is as evil does.

Bob

Originally Posted by pavelaw

The source of casualties is the IDF web site.

I do not equate "ordinary" Palestinians with anyone, Japanese, German or otherwise. I am sure there are, as with all people, good and bad ones among the Palestinians. Hamas, on the other hand, is a recognized terrorist group and to me, they are equal to the worst. There is no place in today's world for religious fanatics who deliberately murder innocent women, children and adults... who indiscriminately try to kill as many people as possible... and who hide behind innocents for their protection. Hamas, I believe, would sacrifice all the Palestinians for their idealism. Evil is as evil does.

Bob

The IDF web site is hardly a credible source for the number of Palestinians killed.

When I said that the Palestinians were not comparable to Japan and Germany I meant that the Palestinians don't have any army, airforce or navy and didn't invade anyone's country. If the airmen who dropped bombs on Germany or Japan were considered heroic, it was because they risked being shot down by enemy planes or aircraft, which the Palestinians have neither. There was nothing heroic about flying over Gaza and dropping bombs. If you want to make historical analogies, it would be more accurate to compare Hamas to the partisans who fought the invading Germans on their own soil. All the Palestinians in Gaza are the owners of land that was taken from them by the Israelis in 1967. But the thing that I really want to tell you that you don't seem to understand is that, like a good lawyer, you are trying to put the best face on Israel's actions, defending it in the court of public opinion. Unfortunately, you miss the point that Israel is in great danger because it has closed all the doors to a solution. Israel's generals admit that there is no military solution and, in fact, the invasion of Lebanon and the recent attack on Gaza have accomplished nothing. Israel has left itself no options at all, other than genocide and this will, over time, cause public opinion to turn against it.

In the end, neither you nor I will solve this problem, which will be solved by the natural evolution of events on the ground. Every day that the Palestinians survive, they win and the Israelis lose.

Originally Posted by Thehedgie

First, why is it when Israel has missles fired into it's cities, or at other times have enemy fighters cross the border to kidnap soldiers, when Israel retaliates they're made out to be the bad ones.

Chicken or the egg, otherwise known as the, "He started it" defense.

Think of it this way; If a 300lb man was sitting on you and you smacked uselessly at his blubber to try to dislodge him and he, in turn took a hammer to your head, who would be the bad guy?

Originally Posted by Thehedgie

Second, why do some people seem to think Jews and Israelis are the same people and agree on everything?

Bigotry.

X

Originally Posted by xman

Chicken or the egg, otherwise known as the, "He started it" defense.

Think of it this way; If a 300lb man was sitting on you and you smacked uselessly at his blubber to try to dislodge him and he, in turn took a hammer to your head, who would be the bad guy?


Bigotry.

X

I like your 300lb man analogy. The answr to the second question is more complex than just bigotry. The State of Israel has made a great effort to present itself as the hope and salvation of the Jewish people. I was born in 1948, about a month after Israel was founded (which is why my father didn't give me a second American first name, but just Dov, and Israeli propaganda has followed me around all my life. When I was Bar Mitvahed, all the 13-year-olds were invited to an Israeli reception in Chicago where we were given a framed copy of the Israeli Declaration of Independence. I attended Jewish parochial schools through my first year of college and there was always an American flag and an Israeli flag and every assembly ended with the singing of Hatikvah, as if we were citizens of Israel and not the US.

Now, here's the problem: throughout history one of the charges against the Jews was that they had a divided loyalty and were only loyal to their country of residence if its policies didn't conflict with Jewish interests. With the creation of the State of Israel, the problem of "dual loyalty" was exacerbated. In fact, many American Zionists also have Israeli citizenship, including many Jews who are employed by the US government. So, one element of the answer is that, in fact, many Jews do identify strongly with Israel. The justification for this is fear of antisemitism, that the Jewish people need Israel as a refuge from persecution.

The second part of the answer is that Jews have a very clear in-group/out-group mentality. Jewish business is only to be discussed among Jews and never in the presence of gentiles. This is the root reason for most of the hostility that is directed at me personally on this site. An individual Jew might have doubts about the behavior of Israel but he would never say so in public because this is considered treason to the Jewish people. To most Jews, criticism of Israel is equal to antisemitism, no matter how well-founded. IMO all this is not good for the Jewish people and, if you're still reading, I will explain why.

To most Jews, the history of Judaism is a long litany of persecution and suffering. Christian culture is inherently, deeply and irrationally antisemitic for no valid reason. From the Jewish point of view, the persecutions that Jews have suffered have never had anything to do with the behavior of Jews and everything to do with the fact that gentiles are crazy, violent and stupid. So, if you think that the local gentiles are likely to rise up, at any moment, and persecute you for no reason and that you will need Israel to escape to, then it makes sense to stick together with your fellow Jews and support everything that Israel does.

This idea that Jews are always the victims of irrational antisemitism, despite what we do, and that we must never criticize Israel, despite what it does, means that we can never see reality clearly. This is where the "We can't make peace with the Arabs because they hate us" mantra comes from. For me the bottom line is that, if Israel can't/won't make peace, then there won't be peace. If there isn't peace then one side has to win, completely, and the other side has to lose, completely. At the moment, Israel is certainly the stronger party, in your analogy, its the 300lb man and, as they say, "the bigger they are, the harder they fall." Israel invaded Lebanon to prove how tough it was and then Gaza to "reestablish its deterrence" and both moves failed. Israel is running out of options and ideas. It only has one clear idea and that is to somehow crush, kill or displace the Palestinians.

Do you REALLY believe any of that, or is it simply a quasi-intellectual justification for your positions? I know you claim to have a well thought out rationale and have arrived at your position through years of thought and observation, but come on...are you serious, or do you just like stirring the pot with this irrational drivel?

Jewish "business" is never to be discussed around gentiles? Jews have this and that mindset? You can not, MUST NOT be serious. I can point you to this GREAT literature, called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I'm sure you would find it a fascinating read, and could quote it extensively to further your cause.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

Do you REALLY believe any of that, or is it simply a quasi-intellectual justification for your positions? I know you claim to have a well thought out rationale and have arrived at your position through years of thought and observation, but come on...are you serious, or do you just like stirring the pot with this irrational drivel?

Jewish "business" is never to be discussed around gentiles? Jews have this and that mindset? You can not, MUST NOT be serious. I can point you to this GREAT literature, called the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I'm sure you would find it a fascinating read, and could quote it extensively to further your cause.

Yes, that is what I think. Would you mind answering a couple of questions? The first question is, "Exactly what is it that I said that you think isn't true?" I said that Israel has promoted itself as the salvation of the Jewish people, that Jews fear a resurgence of antisemitism and take an Israel right or wrong position. What's controversial about that?

The second question is, "Have you ever read the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' or do you just know its reputation?"

If what I have to say is "quasi-intellectual drivel", then why do you read it and, even more so, respond to it? If you think that Jews are not the way I describe, then tell me how you are different.