Thread: Fifth Annual Israeli Apartheid Week, March 1-7, 2009

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Yes, that is what I think. Would you mind answering a couple of questions? The first question is, "Exactly what is it that I said that you think isn't true?" I said that Israel has promoted itself as the salvation of the Jewish people, that Jews fear a resurgence of antisemitism and take an Israel right or wrong position. What's controversial about that?

The second question is, "Have you ever read the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' or do you just know its reputation?"

If what I have to say is "quasi-intellectual drivel", then why do you read it and, even more so, respond to it? If you think that Jews are not the way I describe, then tell me how you are different.

What do I believe is untrue? Everything starting with "Israel..." or "Jews...." It is generally controversial to assume the belief of any person based opurely on their birth into a religion. You are, if I rememebr correctly, born of a Jewish mother? DO YOU believe these things that Jews believe? No? then perhaps you need to rethink putting all jews in one camp. You and I would be killed side-by-side in the hands of certain groups.
Oh, and I talk about my Jewish business in front of gentiles all the time. I have started businesses with Jews and Gentiles. I have, along with my Orthodox friends, been involved in dealings with gentiles where everyone was treated fairly! Amazing, I know!

Which version? The original? Which one? Discusssions in Hell (Joly), which never even mentions Jews? Or the one developed during the Russian Revolution because of the fact that there were a few Jews in positions of power in the Red Army? Goedsche's book Biarritz..even though only a small portion of it, combined with elements of Joly's original work, can be seen to be the foundation of the fraud?
Yes, i have read some of this material. Why do you ask? Is its reputation undeserved? Let me guess, anyone who claims that it is an actual historical document laying out the groundwork of the Jewish conspiracy is UNFAIRLY ostracised by the Jew controlled media like holocaust deniers and their ilk.
HAVE YOU READ IT? DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS HISTORICAL VALIDITY IN IT? Your answers to these questions could be interesting. I've read Mein Kampf, too...I don't beleive what he says about jews is any more (or less) accurate than what you do.

Why do I read it? Why do I respond? For the same reason I read Stormfront's webpage..it is good to know what the "other side" is saying. For the same reason I talk to my friends about what I read there. For the same reason I read about the good work the Southern Poverty Law Center does, and what the ADL is doing to counter racism and bigotry throughout the world. For the same reason I press my elected leaders to push for jsutice and peace in Darfur, in the Middle East, and in my country. I do so because I believe it is my duty as a man, as an American , and as a Jew.

I am not Jewish nor Christian, just an observer of current events & modern history. I was born after the Six Day War, so perhaps do not have a "current" perspective on events before that. What I have seen, throughout my life, is Israel acting like a school bully. Invasions of its neighbours are frequent & brutal by any standard. The use of white phosphorus ordinance is banned in military situations for very good reasons. There is credible evidence, from Medicins Sans Frontieres, that the IDF (that name is a sick joke) used it on civilians.

Is this a civilised way to behave for a nation? I think not. In the past couple of days there have been two British soldiers & one policeman shot by dissident Republican paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. No one has said that the British Army should be back on patrol on the streets of Ulster. All politicos are saying that this would be a very bad idea. Before you dismiss this, it does bear a lot of similarities to the situation in Gaza & Israel. The big difference is that we do not hit first & think about it later which seems to be Israel's preferred modus operandi.

What has appalled me the most is the mob mentality & insults directed at certain members here. Jewish or Gentile would both do will to remember that great British Jew Benjamin Disraeli's words "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." You must examine your country's & faith's actions & disagree, vehemently if necessary. Accusing someone of lack of consideration or thought when they have succintly stated their reasoning is the height of folly

Originally Posted by Spike J

I am not Jewish nor Christian, just an observer of current events & modern history. I was born after the Six Day War, so perhaps do not have a "current" perspective on events before that. What I have seen, throughout my life, is Israel acting like a school bully. Invasions of its neighbours are frequent & brutal by any standard. The use of white phosphorus ordinance is banned in military situations for very good reasons. There is credible evidence, from Medicins Sans Frontieres, that the IDF (that name is a sick joke) used it on civilians.

Is this a civilised way to behave for a nation? I think not. In the past couple of days there have been two British soldiers & one policeman shot by dissident Republican paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. No one has said that the British Army should be back on patrol on the streets of Ulster. All politicos are saying that this would be a very bad idea. Before you dismiss this, it does bear a lot of similarities to the situation in Gaza & Israel. The big difference is that we do not hit first & think about it later which seems to be Israel's preferred modus operandi.

What has appalled me the most is the mob mentality & insults directed at certain members here. Jewish or Gentile would both do will to remember that great British Jew Benjamin Disraeli's words "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." You must examine your country's & faith's actions & disagree, vehemently if necessary. Accusing someone of lack of consideration or thought when they have succintly stated their reasoning is the height of folly

So jumping the border to kidnap enemy soldiers and kill civilians is any more civilized? Both sides have done wrong, it's not about who has done worse because no matter what the figures say Israel will always be made out to be the enemy.

I think Israel's issue is they keep getting screwed. They turn land back over, and the greenhouses get destroyed. The UN doesn't do anything to help them or even protect them. Plus the biggest issue of all is Hamas is still considered a terrorist organization.

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

What do I believe is untrue? Everything starting with "Israel..." or "Jews...." It is generally controversial to assume the belief of any person based opurely on their birth into a religion. You are, if I rememebr correctly, born of a Jewish mother? DO YOU believe these things that Jews believe? No? then perhaps you need to rethink putting all jews in one camp. You and I would be killed side-by-side in the hands of certain groups.
Oh, and I talk about my Jewish business in front of gentiles all the time. I have started businesses with Jews and Gentiles. I have, along with my Orthodox friends, been involved in dealings with gentiles where everyone was treated fairly! Amazing, I know!

Which version? The original? Which one? Discusssions in Hell (Joly), which never even mentions Jews? Or the one developed during the Russian Revolution because of the fact that there were a few Jews in positions of power in the Red Army? Goedsche's book Biarritz..even though only a small portion of it, combined with elements of Joly's original work, can be seen to be the foundation of the fraud?
Yes, i have read some of this material. Why do you ask? Is its reputation undeserved? Let me guess, anyone who claims that it is an actual historical document laying out the groundwork of the Jewish conspiracy is UNFAIRLY ostracised by the Jew controlled media like holocaust deniers and their ilk.
HAVE YOU READ IT? DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS HISTORICAL VALIDITY IN IT? Your answers to these questions could be interesting. I've read Mein Kampf, too...I don't beleive what he says about jews is any more (or less) accurate than what you do.

Why do I read it? Why do I respond? For the same reason I read Stormfront's webpage..it is good to know what the "other side" is saying. For the same reason I talk to my friends about what I read there. For the same reason I read about the good work the Southern Poverty Law Center does, and what the ADL is doing to counter racism and bigotry throughout the world. For the same reason I press my elected leaders to push for jsutice and peace in Darfur, in the Middle East, and in my country. I do so because I believe it is my duty as a man, as an American , and as a Jew.

Welcome, brother.

Actually, on second thought, I shouldn't be so flip. Yes, I was speaking in generalities, which are always wrong in the specific but useful in general.

I have read the Protocols for the same reason you did, to hear what the other side is saying. I thought it was interesting but over-the-top. Does it have historical validity? I don't know. If the Jews are ruling the world, I'm not one of them. On the other hand, the Rothschild family certainly does have a lot of money. The reason I asked if you had read them was because you were trying to insult me.

Originally Posted by Thehedgie

Plus the biggest issue of all is Hamas is still considered a terrorist organization.

Actually, that could change. Here is an article from the New York Times quoted on Norman Finkelstein's web site. The gist of it is that Britain has decided to break with the United States and change its attitude towards Hezbollah, until now considered a terrorist organization. The money quote is:

Like Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah has long been treated by the United States as a proscribed terrorist group. This narrow view has ignored the fact that both organizations are now entrenched political and social movements without whose involvement regional peace is impossible.

Britain aligned itself with the U.S. position on Hezbollah, but has now seen its error. Bill Marston, a Foreign Office spokesman, told Al Jazeera: “Hezbollah is a political phenomenon and part and parcel of the national fabric in Lebanon. We have to admit this.”

As I said, the attitude of the world towards the Palestinians and Israel is starting to change.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Does it have historical validity? I don't know.

Yes you do. Everyone does. There are SOME things that SOME people say about Jews being evil that are untrue. Come on, say it. I have never once used Christian baby blood to bake my matzoh...you? My brothers and I got the living hell kicked out of us when we moved to a new town because Jews kill Christian babies for their blood.

The insult was truly meant at what I see as an irrational, extremist conspiracy theory, not you personally. One can not rely on The Protocols or Mein Kampf for hsitorical information about Jews any more than you think one can rely on the IDF website for numbers of Palestinians killed.

And yes, there are rich Jewish families. This means what? Or was that a joke? If so, sorry, I fully admit I can get thin skinned on this topic. One of the two or three (maybe number one?) richest men in the world is Mexican...do Mexicans have a secret plan to dominate the world?

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Actually, that could change. Here is an article from the New York Times quoted on Norman Finkelstein's web site. .

Not quite a NYT article, though. it's from the opinion page. Yes, it made the NYT, but to be perfectly clear, it's an op-ed.



Again, quotes from Norman Finkelstein, figures from the IDF...where is the middle ground? Some people still look for it, and do NOT claim Israel is doomed.

I am Israeli, and I served in the IDF from 1973-1987. I can tell you guys that if Israel ever loses one war, just one war, there will be no more Israel. I also noticed how the world acts with such horror and disgust when innocent Palestinian children are killed by Israeli bombs, and I don't like it either at all, but why is it, that when Israeli children are killed by missiles or rockets, which are fired by Palestinian militants, the world doesn't seem to care, or be so concerned? Is it my imagination, or is it because Israeli children are expendable? I just thought I'd ask.

Jeff

Originally Posted by crackstar

I am Israeli, and I served in the IDF from 1973-1987. I can tell you guys that if Israel ever loses one war, just one war, there will be no more Israel. I also noticed how the world acts with such horror and disgust when innocent Palestinian children are killed by Israeli bombs, and I don't like it either at all, but why is it, that when Israeli children are killed by missiles or rockets, which are fired by Palestinian militants, the world doesn't seem to care, or be so concerned? Is it my imagination, or is it because Israeli children are expendable? I just thought I'd ask.

Jeff

Jeff, I agree completely with what you wrote. Golda Meir said: "We can forgive you for killing our children, but we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."

Golda Meir also said: "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."

The world unfairly holds Israel to the highest possible standard-- a standard so lofty that it is impossible to maintain. On the other hand, the world holds the Arabs to the lowest possible standard-- the standard of a pit that has no bottom. Arabs are instantly forgiven, even dismissed, when they display their primitive instincts and engage in murderous, despicable conduct-- it is expected of them; after all, they are Arabs, says the world. A Jew, on the other hand, is held by the world to a standard higher than Jesus and there is never forgiveness for a Jew dropping below that pinnacle.

Both sides do their utmost to live up to the standards the world expects of each... Israelis constantly excel or try their best to do so; the Arabs constantly seek new lows, or try their best to do so.

Two more quotes from Golda Meir: "It is true we have won all our wars, but we have paid for them. We don't want victories anymore."

"We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs; we have no place to go."



Bob

Originally Posted by Chimensch

When I said that the Palestinians were not comparable to Japan and Germany I meant that the Palestinians don't have any army, airforce or navy and didn't invade anyone's country.

People without an army, air force or navy, should not provoke a sovereign country that does have those things. Even a horse will swat a pesky fly that won't leave it alone. Are you trying to say that people without an army, air force or navy can get away with murder and can rocket and mortar a sovereign country as much as they want to, with impunity? By the way, it was Hamas that did the rocketing-- Iranian proxies-- and that hid behind Palestinian women and children... what were they thinking? Hamas came in and brutally overran the PA, murdering 250 Palestinians-- throwing some of them off tall roofs as the chosen method of execution; you say they didn't invade anyone's country? Once the IDF left, Hamas went around killing and knee-capping anyone who they thought was happy with the results. I suspect that Hamas killed more innocent Palestinians than did the IDF. Those are your idols?

Bob

Originally Posted by billyjeff2

Perhaps you'll entreat the attendees to this fine gathering to drop their philosophical commitment to bring about the destruction of Israel, and to nicely ask Hamas and Fatah to stop lobbing missiles into Israel. If they are so inclined, that is. On second thought, why waste your breath.

By the way--if you find you're having a hard time locating some of the attendees, try looking behind the children. They like to hide behind them...

Couldn't say it better.
Will--