Thread: Fifth Annual Israeli Apartheid Week, March 1-7, 2009

Originally Posted by pavelaw

Golda Meir said: "We can forgive you for killing our children, but we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."

When you analyze them, the quotes from Golda Meir are really quite horrible. Let me paraphrase: "We are so moral and sensitive that, after we exterminate you, we will feel really, really bad."

The operative words are "we will never forgive you"; we aren't bad people, we are only killing your children because you made us. This is the psychology that justifies killing 700-1300 people in 23 days because Hamas's rockets killed 17 Israelis in 5 years. Does it really never occur to the Israelis that they are being attacked because, for 40 years, they have been occupying land that doesn't belong to them?

Originally Posted by smokelaw1

There are SOME things that SOME people say about Jews being evil that are untrue. Come on, say it. I have never once used Christian baby blood to bake my matzoh...you? My brothers and I got the living hell kicked out of us when we moved to a new town because Jews kill Christian babies for their blood.

It's interesting that you bring up the Blood Libel. I believe you when you say that you have never used Christian baby blood to bake your matzohs ... neither have I. Since you follow these things, you will surely remember the case of Ariel Toaff's book, Pasque di Sangue (Bloody Passovers). I live in Italy and, when the book was published, I realized what a bombshell it was and bought one of the 3,000 or so copies that were sold before it was withdrawn.

For those who don't know the story, Ariel Toaff is the son of the former Chief Rabbi of Italy, Elio Toaff. At the time he published his book, Toaff was a professor of Medieval and Renaissance History at Bar-Ilan University in Israel. Previous to that book, he had published three others on Medieval Jewish history, one of which was published in English.

Toaff's book describes the culture of blood and violence in the Middle Ages and then, based on documents from a ritual murder trial in Trento in 1475, suggests that there could have been an extremist Jewish group that actually did it. As soon as the book was published, there was worldwide outrage, Toaff was called on the carpet and threatened with the loss of his job and pension, expelled from his synagogue, his children were expelled from school and he received death threats. The man was destroyed and forced to recant.

Do I think Toaff's theory is correct? I don't know. Even if it was, it wouldn't justify the persecution of Jews today. But, supposing it was true, it would go a long way to explaining what really happened between Christians and Jews in the Middle Ages. Right or wrong, Toaff thought it was important enough to publish his book that he risked and lost everything. Even though the book has been suppressed, copies like mine survive and someone has even translated it into English and put it on the web. I think that, in the long run, being suppressed enhances its reputation, another example of "the truth Jews don't want you to know!!!"

One could go on and on. For example, my wife and I read the first volume of Solzhenitsyn's "Two Hundred Years Together" (in Italian because I couldn't find the English edition), a history of the relations between Jews and Russians before and after the revolution. Based on contemporary accounts, one could make a case that the Russian peasants rose up against the Jews who were managing the estates owned by the Polish aristocracy for economic reasons and not antisemitism. Solzhenitsyn also makes the case that the pogroms were exaggerated out of all relation to reality for propaganda purposes. Solzhenitsyn was a very popular author until he published this book, which is very difficult to find. It is, in effect, suppressed.

These books are suppressed for political reasons because they reflect on the present and people begin to draw uncomfortable parallels with the past.

Originally Posted by Chimensch

When you analyze them, the quotes from Golda Meir are really quite horrible. Let me paraphrase: "We are so moral and senstivie that, after we exterminate you, we will feel really, really bad."

The operative words are "we will never forgive you"; we aren't bad people, we are only killing your children because you made us. This is the psychology that justifies killing 700-1300 people in 23 days because Hamas's rockets killed 17 Israelis in 5 years. Does it really never occur to the Israelis that they are being attacked because, for 40 years, they have been occupying land that doesn't belong to them?

The sad thing is, you can take anything and twist it to suit your view point, and you don't even see it. That is truly sad.

Originally Posted by JMS

The sad thing is, you can take anything and twist it to suit your view point, and you don't even see it. That is truly sad.

Mark, what's sad is that you can't seem to accept the fact that someone disagrees with you. If you see it one way, that's because you have a clear view of reality but if I see it another, it's twisted. Get over yourself!

Quote "It's interesting that you bring up the Blood Libel. I believe you when you say that you have never used Christian baby blood to bake your matzohs ... neither have I. Since you follow these things, you will surely remember the case of Ariel Toaff's book, Pasque di Sangue (Bloody Passovers). I live in Italy and, when the book was published, I realized what a bombshell it was and bought one of the 3,000 or so copies that were sold before it was withdrawn."


Chimensch-You really are one sad, sad sicko... You are as bad as any Neo nazi I have ever encountered.

EVEN IF---which I in no way grant, simply fo rthe sake of this argument, such a thing happened in the 1400's...for the purposes of this conversation, who cares what the relationship betwen Christians and Jews in the 1400's was?
You truly believe that Jews in general are liars, and that everything said about their persecution is made up or exagerrated for our "propaganda." Pogroms? Exagerated! Holocaust...exagerated, ripe for questioning! Defend themselves in Israel? Murder! Oh, they have a right to defend themselves? Well...then they shouldn't be there in the first place, they are bringing it on themselves!

Originally Posted by Chimensch

One could go on and on. For example, my wife and I read the first volume of Solzhenitsyn's "Two Hundred Years Together" (in Italian because I couldn't find the English edition), a history of the relations between Jews and Russians before and after the revolution. Based on contemporary accounts, one could make a case that the Russian peasants rose up against the Jews who were managing the estates owned by the Polish aristocracy for economic reasons and not antisemitism. Solzhenitsyn also makes the case that the pogroms were exaggerated out of all relation to reality for propaganda purposes. Solzhenitsyn was a very popular author until he published this book, which is very difficult to find. It is, in effect, suppressed.



These books are suppressed for political reasons because they reflect on the present and people begin to draw uncomfortable parallels with the past.

And you do go on and on. These books draw "uncomfortable parallels" with the past? Jews managing the estate unfairly to the peasants? Are you kidding me? How is a book "in effect' supressed? Did his publsher refuse to print it? There are plenty of white power sites that still offer reprints of all sorts of hate propaganda. I am sure you are aware of them. This is not me insulting you, this is me calling a spade a spade.

This is no longer an argument. This is simply a man spewing hateful rhetoric. You are an anti-semite, not simply an anti-zionist. This is not me playing the "he questioned Jews, and went agians the establishment...antisemitism! Antisemitism!" card.. Everything you say, the sources you cite, the justification ofatrocities against Jews along with the damnation of any questionable conduct by them OR Israel.

Everyone, please excuse the typing today, I mangled my hand traiing Krav Maga last night, and it is shaking preettty badly for some reason. Yes, I should see someone, and no, I don't have time to do so.

Originally Posted by Chady

...hot?

Oh, my goodness, YES!!!!!!

Jeff

Originally Posted by bpave777

I believe the Israeli's have the right to exist without being attacked by extremists throwing bombs at them, daily. They have the right to defend themselves. Especially against a government, Hamas, that has vowed to destroy them, and has no intention of living peacefully.

That is a very nice and honest thing to say. I served in the IDF, I was a tank unit commander, and I have combat experience. The IDF NEVER attacked civilians, nor ever will. Hamas, or Hizbullah will attack anything Israeli, or even Jewish.

Jeff

Originally Posted by pavelaw

Jeff, I agree completely with what you wrote. Golda Meir said: "We can forgive you for killing our children, but we will never forgive you for making us kill yours."

Golda Meir also said: "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."

The world unfairly holds Israel to the highest possible standard-- a standard so lofty that it is impossible to maintain. On the other hand, the world holds the Arabs to the lowest possible standard-- the standard of a pit that has no bottom. Arabs are instantly forgiven, even dismissed, when they display their primitive instincts and engage in murderous, despicable conduct-- it is expected of them; after all, they are Arabs, says the world. A Jew, on the other hand, is held by the world to a standard higher than Jesus and there is never forgiveness for a Jew dropping below that pinnacle.

Both sides do their utmost to live up to the standards the world expects of each... Israelis constantly excel or try their best to do so; the Arabs constantly seek new lows, or try their best to do so.

Two more quotes from Golda Meir: "It is true we have won all our wars, but we have paid for them. We don't want victories anymore."

"We Jews have a secret weapon in our struggle with the Arabs; we have no place to go."


Bob

I agree completely on this point. There is a double standard for behavior on many levels and extends beyond just Arabs, but to Islam and other "less developed" cultures in general.

Jordan

Originally Posted by Chimensch

Egypt made peace with Israel. Jordan has good relations with Israel and so does Saudi Arabia. I think that the Palestinians would also make peace with Israel if it was fair. In fact, Hamas has said as much and I think that they ought to be given a chance to demonstrate it. Now, before you start talking about the rockets, remember that two years ago, as soon as Hamas was elected, Israel put an embargo on Gaza. In effect, Israel never gave Hamas a chance.

Also consider that Israel has never stopped building illegal settlements on Palestinian land. In fact, it is generally agreed that the so-called "facts on the ground" make a two-state solution impossible. Now, in regard to building settlements, Hamas didn't do it, Israel did.

If you look at the situation in the occupied territories for the last 40 years and look only at what Israel does (and ignoring what it says), it becomes very clear that Israel has avoided every opportunity to make peace. In fact, it is very clear to me that Israel doesn't want peace, it wants the land, and thinks that it can "tough it out" until the Palestinians give up.

Well, the end result is that Israel has painted itself into a corner. It has built so many settlements and infrastructure in the West Bank that a two-state solution is impossible. So, what's the alternative? A single state with equal rights for all its citizens? No, that's impossible, too, because if there isn't a Palestinian majority today, there will be in 20 years because the Palestinian birth rate is higher and Israelis are actually emigrating. So, Israel only has two possible ways out, both bad. One is to take over the West Bank and Gaza and impose an Apartheid regime (which is already in place in Israel for its Arab citizens) or genocide all the Palestinians, like we did to the Native Americans in the US. Neither solution can last very long. My personal opinion (and I take no pleasure in saying this) is that Israel is toast and it will just take some time before it collapses. Why? Well, for one thing, the United States is quickly coming to a point where it can't afford to pour billions of dollars a year into Israel. When that happens, Israel will be on its own and will have to deal with internal pressure from the Palestinians and external pressure from the Arab countries. Then what's it going to do? Drop an atom bomb and start World War III?

Just a minute--Israel and Saudi Arabia have good relations? They don't even have diplomatic relations. It's true the 2 countries are not militarily fighting, but Saudi Arabia is no more friendly towards Israel than Yemen, or Algeria. In fact, Saudi Arabia offered Hamas weapons, and money. If you're trying to tell me about atrocities commited by the Israelis, what about the atrocities commited by the Syrian army against Israeli POWs in the 1973 Yom Kippour War. I was on the Golan Heights when at 14:00 PM, Syrian jets attacked us, and a few minutes, we were attacked by 1,500 Syrian tanks, 1,250 artillery guns, and about 500,000 Syrian soldiers on the holiest of Jewish Festivals. What the hell did Israel do to deserve that? Is Israel supposed to roll over and die because Syria, Hamas, Hizbollah and others refuse to let her live in peace? Why the hell does Israel have to fight for the right to exist every time the sun rises?

Jeff

Originally Posted by crackstar

Just a minute--Israel and Saudi Arabia have good relations? They don't even have diplomatic relations. It's true the 2 countries are not militarily fighting, but Saudi Arabia is no more friendly towards Israel than Yemen, or Algeria. In fact, Saudi Arabia offered Hamas weapons, and money. If you're trying to tell me about atrocities commited by the Israelis, what about the atrocities commited by the Syrian army against Israeli POWs in the 1973 Yom Kippour War. I was on the Golan Heights when at 14:00 PM, Syrian jets attacked us, and a few minutes, we were attacked by 1,500 Syrian tanks, 1,250 artillery guns, and about 500,000 Syrian soldiers on the holiest of Jewish Festivals. What the hell did Israel do to deserve that? Is Israel supposed to roll over and die because Syria, Hamas, Hizbollah and others refuse to let her live in peace? Why the hell does Israel have to fight for the right to exist every time the sun rises?

Jeff

Chimensch doesn't believe in Israels right to exist, he would like to see it disolved into some kind of Bi-national state.... Some hope of that!!