Thread: Heroes For Gods?

Originally Posted by Seraphim

If you actually read the Bible, it is filled with stories of people who are not morally upstanding, but are rather all quite flawed and immoral.

I used to read it a couple of decades ago. Quite fervently at that time but the seeds apparently went on stony ground. I recall once when a girl told me that,"It might be true for you, but it's not true for everybody." I replied,"No, it is either true for everybody or it's not true for anybody." I didn't know it at the time but I was paraphrasing something that the Reverend Jonathan Edwards had written a couple of hundred years before. Now I tend to read Bart Ehrman, Sam Harris and the like. I haven't cracked the good book in a long time.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

And without God, then people are free to make up their own minds about what is moral or not.

Well, you know, reading about the history of the various major world religions, I'd say that is true with or without God.

Originally Posted by JimR

Well, you know, reading about the history of the various major world religions, I'd say that is true with or without God.

Not a bad point to make.

Originally Posted by icedog

I have heard there are people, large groups of people, celebrating the shootings at Ft. Hood as a great victory and hailing the alleged shooter, Major Nidal Malik Hasan as a hero. Simultaneously there are at least as many people who are calling for Hasan's head and are ready to imprison all Muslims (worldwide) as criminals or at least watch them as potential terrorists.

Now flash back to the end of this past May when George Tiller, M.D. was gunned down in cold blood while serving as an usher in a Sunday church service.The murder of Dr. Tiller was widely celebrated as a victory and Scott Roeder, the alleged killer was hailed as a hero by many, even as he boasted about plans for more impending murders.

Am I alone in seeing the similarities in these two horrible crimes? If the supreme being to whom you chose to dedicate your life and in whose name you are willing to end the lives of fellow human beings really does require the assistance of mentally unstable disciples, I will gladly remain an athiest avoiding carefully those who profess their religion is the right one.

And can we look even further here?

George Tiller himself ended many, many a life in utero, and was hailed as "providing a needed service" by many secularists, even as a "stalwart defender of women rights and beloved physician".

So, even the Godless support those who take other's lives. The secularists are not above this comparrison either.

Originally Posted by DPflaumer

I do think it deserves mentioning that I also believe Atheists who have never given religion a fair chance as just as much in the wrong in my mind. I feel as if I have given both sides a fair chance (went to a religious camp, attended voluntarily with friends, went to a boarding school where we had to attend a religious service, dated a catholic girl for about 2 years, etc...) but in my mind, it just doesn't hold up.

It sounds like you've only tried a few out of the hundreds of branches of Christianity, and none of the thousands of other religions out there. I don't think that's enough to count as having given religion a fair try.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

...So, even the Godless support those who take other's lives. The secularists are not above this comparrison either.

"Godless"? The murder took place in a church during a worship service. How are you qualified to make any judgemental decisions about the faith of someone you don't know? The fact is that Dr. Tiller worked within the boundaries of the law which says he did not anyone's life. According to the law, human life does not begin until birth.

Originally Posted by jcd

It sounds like you've only tried a few out of the hundreds of branches of Christianity, and none of the thousands of other religions out there. I don't think that's enough to count as having given religion a fair try.

To elaborate, I have been a various times: A Jew. A Buddhist. A Methodist. A Lutheran. A Catholic. A Pagan. A Non-Denominational Christian.

I don't know how many more things I could possibly try without traveling 100+ miles a week just for services.

You don't have to step on every color thumbtack to know you don't like it.

You don't have to get hit by every make of car to know it sucks.

You don't have to get bit by every shark to know it will hurt.

You don't have to try every religion to know you don't like it.

When you break it down, I just don't like being told that my existence and eternal fate rest in the hands of an invisible man (or invisible people) in the sky.

Originally Posted by icedog

"Godless"? The murder took place in a church during a worship service. How are you qualified to make any judgemental decisions about the faith of someone you don't know? The fact is that Dr. Tiller worked within the boundaries of the law which says he did not anyone's life. According to the law, human life does not begin until birth.

Mr Tiller may or may not be Godless in his own mind, but I would strongly suspect that many of his ardent supporters are.

Other than that, you are pretty much making my point.

Nadal Hasan atttended a place of worship, George Tiller attended a place of worship, the guy who shot Tiller claimed to be Christian too.....

He may have been operating within the boundaries of the law. But I will refer back to my previous comment:

And without God, then people are free to make up their own minds about what is moral or not.

It is the law of the land, but perhaps does not conform to the 6th commandment. It is a secular law, is it not?

But, even the Isrealites at the base of Mt Sinai, as Moses was recieving the 10 commandments were breaking the very same commandments by worshiping idols, etc. The fact that they were breaking the rules does not make the rules wrong, it just means they were not following them.

Same goes for people who claim to act according to their misunderstandings of religious teachings.

Being in a church no more makes you a Christian than being in a garage makes you a car.

Originally Posted by DPflaumer

I don't know how many more things I could possibly try without traveling 100+ miles a week just for services.

That's what I was saying; it's almost impossible to give religion a fair try - if you don't get lucky and find one you like.

Originally Posted by DPflaumer

You don't have to step on every color thumbtack to know you don't like it.

You don't have to get hit by every make of car to know it sucks.

You don't have to get bit by every shark to know it will hurt.

You don't have to try every religion to know you don't like it.

I don't think the last statement follows from the others.

Originally Posted by jcd

I don't think the last statement follows from the others.

It doesn't "follow" in a formal logic sense, but the point that he finds orgainzed religion to not be his bag after a rather substantial (I'm sure you'd agree after seeing his list, no?) sample I think is illustrated decently by the other examples.