Christmas poll

**ControlFreak1** · 12-20-2009, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by marosell

No one who finds merit in scientific theories "believes" in them. They are what they are, theories with variable amounts of evidence. The difference being that people who find plausibility in scientific laws and theories are ready to concede their arguments at a moments notice when a better theory with more evidence presents itself.

I can't say that with any amount of evidence you would be willing to concede yours.

When a person actually *wants* to know the truth of the world around them, they have to be prepared to see all evidence that would discount their arguments and be willing to be proved wrong. There is absolutely no room for "beliefs" in that equation.

That is the difference between blind faith and scientific reason.

Edit: I will add that I'm fully prepared to acknowledge the plausible existence of a god or the man-god Jesus should a unsurmountable field of evidence present itself.

YA RIGHT !!!

1Timothy 6:20 - O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

**Miner123** · 12-20-2009, 05:30 PM

It is entirely possible that those who don't follow God, or refuse to, are just not one of the elect and are not going to be redeemed.

**ENUF2** · 12-20-2009, 06:16 PM

Theory---

* abstract thought : speculation
* a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action
* a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena
* a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : conjecture c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject

Sounds like a belief system to me.

I will add that I'm fully prepared to acknowledge the plausible existence of a god or the man-god Jesus should a unsurmountable field of evidence present itself.

The Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Fact or Fiction?
also here are 2 works again by Professior Simon Greenleaf of Havard school of law. (The Testimony of the Evangelists: The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence‎/// An examination of the testimony of the Four Evangelists by the rules of evidence administered in courts of justice with an account of the trial of Jesus). Also if you don't care to read there is a dvd study called "The Truth Project". All of the Lee Strobel books" The Case for Christ, for Faith, for the Creator just to mention a few. Josh McDowell "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" and "More\\\The New Evidence that Demands a verdict". In fact here is a utube from him and there are more if you want to look for "unsurmountable " Evidence.
YouTube - The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict - Part One

**paco** · 12-20-2009, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Kees

He might have created man with more strength to resist evil.

Man had all the strength he needed, he was created perfect and with a free will and still chose evil

**ENUF2** · 12-20-2009, 06:31 PM

Just in case here is part 2

YouTube - The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict - Part Two

**marosell** · 12-20-2009, 06:36 PM

No contemporaneous evidence exists that would indicate the existence of Jesus.

Show me something contemporaneous.

**paco** · 12-20-2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by marosell

No one who finds merit in scientific theories "believes" in them. They are what they are, theories with variable amounts of evidence. The difference being that people who find plausibility in scientific laws and theories are ready to concede their arguments at a moments notice when a better theory with more evidence presents itself.

I can't say that with any amount of evidence you would be willing to concede yours.

When a person actually *wants* to know the truth of the world around them, they have to be prepared to see all evidence that would discount their arguments and be willing to be proved wrong. There is absolutely no room for "beliefs" in that equation.

That is the difference between blind faith and scientific reason.

Edit: I will add that I'm fully prepared to acknowledge the plausible existence of a god or the man-god Jesus should a unsurmountable field of evidence present itself.

1With your samestatement unsurmountable evidence I would concede. What would you need to have such evidence, what is enough for you?

2 Again I say you need faith in the theory of eternal matter and energy. And to use the scientific approach, The second law of thermodynamics, Zeroeth Entropy, before The Big Boom! matter and energy if eternal, would be neutral,So what made the Big Bang go BOOM? It needed an external force. God maybe? Just a thought!

**xman** · 12-20-2009, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by paco

[/COLOR][/SIZE]Lets turn this around, your point of view cannot be proven either so why all the name calling?

You misunderstand me. I do not say, "Jesus never lived". I say there is insufficient evidence to convince me that there is any reason to believe he did except for the nagging nativity falsehood. When you can show me that miracles=magic=supernatural exists I will believe it. Until then I cannot, and must adopt the position (not a belief) that it doesn't, meaning we function as though it were fanciful fiction. When somebody tries to pass fictions off as fact we call them liars. If you can provide evidence that these things exist then I wil accept them. The burden of proof is on YOU to show that magic is real.

Originally Posted by paco

Produce an inconsistency of any worth, not just a small change of wording .

Here

Originally Posted by paco

we both have to rely on faith and not facts for our beliefs, because I believe in an eternal being andyou have to believe in eternal matter and energy. Neither of which can be proven.

Incorrect. Your position depends on faith while my position (not a belief) is supported by mountains of solid evidence.

Now please leave me alone.

I'm too busy to keep providing you with details which you refuse to either understand or accept.

**gssixgun** · 12-20-2009, 07:13 PM

Things I have found to be true over many years while discussing Religion...

1. Pagans are not Atheists neither are Wiccan's, Satanists, or even Humanists... if you believe in any cognitive supreme being you are not a true Atheist.. True Atheists are rare, and we don't care about Christmas, "In God We Trust" "One Nation Under God" or any other trivial BS we don't mind Prayer in school, or Prayer in general, it doesn't offend a true Atheist... The only thing that offends us is Proselytizing in whatever form it takes...
2. Belief should be un-faltering...
3. Faith is blind..
4. Love is even more blind
5. Religious people are the most conceded people on the planet..
6. Christians are even more conceded then other theists
7. Born again Christians are the most conceded of all
8. Arguing religion is a waste of time.. The argument of "play it safe" is a waste of time too, according to Christian beliefs you have to take Jesus into your heart not just say you believe...
9. BTW Christians are not supposed to argue religion with non-believers, I do not know about the other religions..

10. THERE IS NO PROOF !!!! that is why they call it FAITH...
if there was any proof, you wouldn't need faith..... Arguing that there is proof, is an insult to your own faith, we know there isn't(at this time), and we know, that you know, there isn't(at this time), and when you claim there is, it is demeaning to your beliefs, honest, really it is....

Now these are just my opinions, but I have done a bit of reading, and honestly those books you guys keep linking to, are not "really" proof...
If any Scientist used that train of thought, on any theorem he would be laughed out of science... You believe it to be proof because, you believe it anyway... That is almost as bad as the mathematician that claimed that PI is equal to 3.15, and when asked to prove it, his answer was "God told him"

There is Faith, and there is Proof, they are not the same....

As for right now, I have not seen any PROOF that Jesus the MAN existed, let alone whether he was divine or not, is a whole other question...and honestly until I read those books you keep linking I would have said he did!!!!!!!

**ControlFreak1** · 12-20-2009, 07:23 PM

Luk 11:29 - And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. - Jesus

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