Thread: BIN LADEN Killed by US forces.

Just to play the devils advocate here, I must say it is not them who have armed troops in your country, but we who have armed troops in theirs, supposedly doing just that...Slitting their throats without batting an eye and with no discussion on the subject.


Mick

Originally Posted by MickR

Just to play the devils advocate here, I must say it is not them who have armed troops in your country, but we who have armed troops in theirs, supposedly doing just that...Slitting their throats without batting an eye and with no discussion on the subject.


Mick

Are you serious ? Did we go over to their country and kill 3,000 civilians in an unprovoked attack ? Continually use terrorism to kill and maim thousands of people for the purpose of bringing an archaic form of government to their nations and the world ? If I weep for anyone it is the survivors of the initial attack at the trade center who had to leap to their death to avoid the flames. Knowing bin laden isn't breathing air and walking in the sun today makes me feel good. YMMV.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Are you serious ? Did we go over to their country and kill 3,000 civilians in an unprovoked attack ? Continually use terrorism to kill and maim thousands of people for the purpose of bringing an archaic form of government to their nations and the world ? If I weep for anyone it is the survivors of the initial attack at the trade center who had to leap to their death to avoid the flames. Knowing bin laden isn't breathing air and walking in the sun today makes me feel good. YMMV.

No 'we' didn't, what 'we' did was train and arm them with the equipment needed to fight the Russians, so that they could get more weapons and equipment. All this without thinking that one day these people might turn against 'us', what with having an entirely different ideology and culture, different religious beliefs (The reason for many wars in the past) and a lifestyle that is seen by them as being highly scandalous. No I'm not condoning the events at the world trade centre, far from it. I am simply saying there are two sides to every coin. Just how many of their innocent civilians have died as a direct result of 'our' invasion of their country. I've seen some horrific (gun camera) footage of children being cut down, adults with video cameras mistaken for weapons, by soldiers with the highest tech surveillance gadgets of war, being blown to bits by 'smart bombs'. Tanks running over the corpses of these innocent civilians and god only knows how much goes un-seen by the average joe. Yes, a few people may have started this mayhem by high-jacking planes, but plane high-jacking was once quite common, almost a terrorists past-time, in the 60's and 70's. Anyone would have thought security would have been at a level where it would be virtually impossible to succeed with 'plane high-jacking these days.
There is no answer to putting an end to all the needless bloodshed, short of one nation destroying all other nations and wiping them off the face of the earth, even then, I doubt there would be peace in the world. But to derive a sense of satisfaction at lopping one head off a Hydra, is a mis-placement of that satisfaction. There will be two more heads to take it's place.
How much debt has the US gone into, in this hunt for one man I wonder? Just because he 'claimed' responsability. He was obviously an extremist and probably a racist too. How many glory hounds in the past have laid claim to things that weren't theirs to claim. Truth is, we will now never know the truth, if we ever really would have.
Has this war been good for the strength of the US or has it weakened it so that it is in danger of suffering seriously from another threat from another sector? Just how much more can 'we' spread ourselves?! How many more long drawn out searches for extremist politicians with differing political views to that of our own can 'we' carry out with 'our' military forces before we have drained the strength of 'our' country(s) to the point where an unknown enemy can just walk in and take it from 'us'?!

Once again, there are two sides to every coin, and no real answers where ever you look.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't necessarily agree that the 'gung ho', 'kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out' attitude is the answer either.


Mick

This will not make ANY difference whatsoever. Zip. Or perhaps it made the world just that bit more dangerous for Americans.
Now Bin Laden is a martyr. He has become a symbol to rally to. Alive he couldn't really do anything. His contacts were burned and his funds were frozen. Dead, he will forever be representing an ideal to the terrorist wannabee.

And of course, people might be triggered to start a retribution right now, rather than sometime in the indeterminate future.
That is not to say he didn't get what he deserved of course.
It'll be interesting to see how this influences Obama's ratings.

Originally Posted by MickR

No 'we' didn't, what 'we' did was train and arm them with the equipment needed to fight the Russians, so that they could get more weapons and equipment. All this without thinking that one day these people might turn against 'us', what with having an entirely different ideology and culture, different religious beliefs (The reason for many wars in the past) and a lifestyle that is seen by them as being highly scandalous. No I'm not condoning the events at the world trade centre, far from it. I am simply saying there are two sides to every coin. Just how many of their innocent civilians have died as a direct result of 'our' invasion of their country. I've seen some horrific (gun camera) footage of children being cut down, adults with video cameras mistaken for weapons, by soldiers with the highest tech surveillance gadgets of war, being blown to bits by 'smart bombs'. Tanks running over the corpses of these innocent civilians and god only knows how much goes un-seen by the average joe. Yes, a few people may have started this mayhem by high-jacking planes, but plane high-jacking was once quite common, almost a terrorists past-time, in the 60's and 70's. Anyone would have thought security would have been at a level where it would be virtually impossible to succeed with 'plane high-jacking these days.
There is no answer to putting an end to all the needless bloodshed, short of one nation destroying all other nations and wiping them off the face of the earth, even then, I doubt there would be peace in the world. But to derive a sense of satisfaction at lopping one head off a Hydra, is a mis-placement of that satisfaction. There will be two more heads to take it's place.
How much debt has the US gone into, in this hunt for one man I wonder? Just because he 'claimed' responsability. He was obviously an extremist and probably a racist too. How many glory hounds in the past have laid claim to things that weren't theirs to claim. Truth is, we will now never know the truth, if we ever really would have.
Has this war been good for the strength of the US or has it weakened it so that it is in danger of suffering seriously from another threat from another sector? Just how much more can 'we' spread ourselves?! How many more long drawn out searches for extremist politicians with differing political views to that of our own can 'we' carry out with 'our' military forces before we have drained the strength of 'our' country(s) to the point where an unknown enemy can just walk in and take it from 'us'?!

Once again, there are two sides to every coin, and no real answers where ever you look.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't necessarily agree that the 'gung ho', 'kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out' attitude is the answer either.


Mick

Stick to straight razors, Mick.
My little brother, Sergeant Major of 3/2 is going back over for the 5th, yes you read right, 5th time. Thank God for men like him, who have the stomach to take care of business; so you are free to speak your mind.

John

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Stick to straight razors, Mick.
My little brother, Sergeant Major of 3/2 is going back over for the 5th, yes you read right, 5th time. Thank God for men like him, who have the stomach to take care of business; so you are free to speak your mind.

John

I was once a Soldier too, my friend. It isn't a lack of guts that has led me to say what I have. It is the lack of peoples ability to see both sides of the coin. Innocent people on both sides have died for no other reason than some idiot out there thinks they are justified in killing them. I have generations of ancestors who have fought to maintain our freedoms. Every male member in my direct line, back to the early 1700's has been in the military. Maybe further back, but I haven't researched more than that. Some may even have been involved in trying to keep America a colony of Britain...Wow! Does that make me the enemy as well?! You get my point don't you? I know the business of dealing with death first hand. Do you? I don't agree with it, no matter who is dealing it out. I also don't agree with the, as previously stated, 'Gung ho', 'kill em all let god sort em out', mentality. There is no 100% satifactory solution I know. But surely with all the technology we have today, we could do much better at protecting ourselves. Those high-jackers learnt to fly in the US after-all, Bin laden didn't teach them!


Mick

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Stick to straight razors, Mick.
My little brother, Sergeant Major of 3/2 is going back over for the 5th, yes you read right, 5th time. Thank God for men like him, who have the stomach to take care of business; so you are free to speak your mind.

John

You do know that Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were trained and sponsored by the CIA, right?
What these men did throughout their career was wrong. But you paid them, trained them and gave them weapons and a cause.
The soldiers out there trying to deal with this mess are no doubt brave and trying to do a good job.
That does not mean that it could not have been prevented. It is still a consequence of poor long term planning and failure of the policy makers to consider other people.

It is great that there are so many people willing to defend the US. That is a brave thing to do.

However, if you want to point fingers or make remarks, much of the current problems are earlier bad decisions coming back to bite the US in the ass and the finger should also point to the ghosts of CIA directors past, and the policy makers of those days who drove over other nations without regard, in the struggle with communism.

Without inserting myself into the political debate, I will say that zappin Bin Laden is a huge symbolic victory. We've finally avenged all those killed on September 11th. Best of all we did so without handing him over to the Department of Justice where he'd be read his Miranda Rights and provided with a Lawyer (at taxpayer expense).

Having spent most of my adult life in the military, I know the lifestyle and I know the sacrifices that these people have to make on a daily basis in the interest of "hacking the mish." I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt and have the utmost respect to anyone who is now or has ever served in the military. However, in that part of the world, I think it is high time that our policy makers stop playing the politically correct game and understand the reality that no matter how much nation building we do, how much money we shovel into corrupt governments or how many American kids die (doing what the indigenous kids lack the testicular fortitude to do), these people's core opinion of us will NEVER change. At the end of the day, we're still unclean, pork eating infidels who have 2 very simple options, convert to Islam or be killed. So point being made is this, while killing Bin Laden is a great symbolic victory for us, if you think for one second this means that the Global War on Terrorism is over and we won, think again. These folks have been living this feud since before Christ was around and Bin Laden dying is not likely to slow it down one bit.

I think the fact that the compound where he was killed was in a town with MAJOR Pakistani military presence speaks volumes about how much REAL committment our "Allies" really have with regard to this fight. We shouldn't be sending a dime of foreign aid to any of these countries simply because 1. We can't afford it and 2. No amount of money will buy their loyalty to the cause of the infidel. and 3. If we think our investment is improving their country we should think again, our foreign aid money goes to the corrupt few in the highest levels of government and little if any filters down to actually improving the country.

Originally Posted by MickR

Not wanting to incite a riot here, but just remember that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. The death of which, is never an end of anything. Another 'freedom fighter' steps forward to become your terrorist at some point along the way. Just look at how many American 'freedom fighters' have died to bring down this well known Taliban 'freedom fighter'. See where I'm going here?!
That good feeling of vengence is not a long lived thing...The Arabs have been at war for centuries in one way or another, and it has solved and resolved nothing except to hone their patience for retribution.

Mick

Taliban and freedom in the same sentence looks unreal

Originally Posted by 1OldGI

Without inserting myself into the political debate, I will say that zappin Bin Laden is a huge symbolic victory. We've finally avenged all those killed on September 11th. Best of all we did so without handing him over to the Department of Justice where he'd be read his Miranda Rights and provided with a Lawyer (at taxpayer expense).

Having spent most of my adult life in the military, I know the lifestyle and I know the sacrifices that these people have to make on a daily basis in the interest of "hacking the mish." I've been there, done that and got the t-shirt and have the utmost respect to anyone who is now or has ever served in the military. However, in that part of the world, I think it is high time that our policy makers stop playing the politically correct game and understand the reality that no matter how much nation building we do, how much money we shovel into corrupt governments or how many American kids die (doing what the indigenous kids lack the testicular fortitude to do), these people's core opinion of us will NEVER change. At the end of the day, we're still unclean, pork eating infidels who have 2 very simple options, convert to Islam or be killed. So point being made is this, while killing Bin Laden is a great symbolic victory for us, if you think for one second this means that the Global War on Terrorism is over and we won, think again. These folks have been living this feud since before Christ was around and Bin Laden dying is not likely to slow it down one bit.

I think the fact that the compound where he was killed was in a town with MAJOR Pakistani military presence speaks volumes about how much REAL committment our "Allies" really have with regard to this fight. We shouldn't be sending a dime of foreign aid to any of these countries simply because 1. We can't afford it and 2. No amount of money will buy their loyalty to the cause of the infidel. and 3. If we think our investment is improving their country we should think again, our foreign aid money goes to the corrupt few in the highest levels of government and little if any filters down to actually improving the country.

I don't disagree with the gist of your post. However the 2 bolded parts are unfair imo.

The first remark... well it is easy to talk about testicular fortitude if you're on the side that outnumbers and outguns the enemy 10 to 1. Looking at the Lybian population before the UN resolution opened the duck season, they don't lack in courage or will. but all those things are not enough if the enemy comes rolling in with tanks, heavy machine guns, and 'no-prisoners' orders. Plenty of countries are following the lead of Tunesia and Egypt. Not all of them are being succesfull, yet they are still trying.

The second remark... the muslims I know (some of which from those areas) are just people like you and me, trying to live a life. They may have different religious observations. So do jews, Jehova's witnesses and scientology cultists. They're not trying to kill me or convert me.