Thread: BIN LADEN Killed by US forces.

Originally Posted by Hirlau

God bless the men and women of your Country who have given their lives and time to stand with us. I will not forget, nor will I allow my son to forget the countries that picked up a sword to help.

There you go, we do have things in common. We both like cut-throat razors and we both won't forget my fellow countrymen for doing something to help your countrymen. I will also bask in some of the reflected glory of that thanks you just dished out, but only because I am an ex-soldier of the country you have just thanked. Good on ya cobber!

Originally Posted by TheZ

You do realize that the majority of Americans are not the card carrying morons that you and many others like to stereotype them as, right?

To me this is good news, read into the effects of what will happen all you want. Another hate-mongering mass murderer is dead. Don't see how that is a bad thing.

Also, to your earlier comment equating civilian collateral damage in war with hijacking a plane full of civilians and flying it into buildings full of civilians (as well as the Pentagon) - you don't see how that is possibly just a tiny bit different?

Yep, I certainly do. And no I don't 'stereotype' Americans as such, but I have spent several months in your country in the past and have most certainly come across a few that do fit the stereotype, as you would in my country. One of those is quoted above and below you, in fact. My argument has never been one to say that Osama should not have died, my point the whole time has been 'where does it end'. They kill innocent civilians, you go and hunt for the people who claim the killing was their idea and in the process kill their innocent people (by accident or mistake). You invade the country that the main target is hiding in, thus creating potential for more hate to be directed at your country...OK, yes 'the means to an end' and all that, I know and understand, agree even. But those that just need an excuse to do harm to your country don't understand or care.
I know that high-jacking planes in the 60's/70's is different to how those blokes operated with the destroying of the trade centre. My point was, 'why hadn't 'we' got enough security measures in place before then?' It should never have been able to happen...At all! Where were the security checks, background checks etc? If they were there and failed, why did they fail? No I'm not laying blame. I'm saying why weren't lessons learned from past events, and procedures put in place.

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Credit! What Credit? With who?
Politicians of the world ? Bruno you must be kidding me.
I want my "Credit" with the victim's families, not some Muslim politician. These animals that you are so readily available to appease, have butchered us for years, with little regard for our customs at the time of our deaths.

I don't want my son redeeming "Credit' from Muslim Fanatics.

I think you must like to argue for the sake of it. That, or you really do need to sort out some serious hate issues. I feel you have intentionally chosen to be close minded, but that is your perogative. We will just have to agree to dis-agree.

I have said all that I feel really needs to be said, so I will now just bow out, as I see it can only go down hill. May we all get a little peace in the world soon.


Mick

Originally Posted by MickR

There you go, we do have things in common. We both like cut-throat razors and we both won't forget my fellow countrymen for doing something to help your countrymen. I will also bask in some of the reflected glory of that thanks you just dished out, but only because I am an ex-soldier of the country you have just thanked. Good on ya cobber!


Yep, I certainly do. And no I don't 'stereotype' Americans as such, but I have spent several months in your country in the past and have most certainly come across a few that do fit the stereotype, as you would in my country. One of those is quoted above and below you, in fact. My argument has never been one to say that Osama should not have died, my point the whole time has been 'where does it end'. They kill innocent civilians, you go and hunt for the people who claim the killing was their idea and in the process kill their innocent people (by accident or mistake). You invade the country that the main target is hiding in, thus creating potential for more hate to be directed at your country...OK, yes 'the means to an end' and all that, I know and understand, agree even. But those that just need an excuse to do harm to your country don't understand or care.
I know that high-jacking planes in the 60's/70's is different to how those blokes operated with the destroying of the trade centre. My point was, 'why hadn't 'we' got enough security measures in place before then?' It should never have been able to happen...At all! Where were the security checks, background checks etc? If they were there and failed, why did they fail? No I'm not laying blame. I'm saying why weren't lessons learned from past events, and procedures put in place.



I think you must like to argue for the sake of it. That, or you really do need to sort out some serious hate issues. I feel you have intentionally chosen to be close minded, but that is your perogative. We will just have to agree to dis-agree.

I have said all that I feel really needs to be said, so I will now just bow out, as I see it can only go down hill. May we all get a little peace in the world soon.


Mick

Mick,
I don't like to argue and think that the thread should have been closed earlier. I hate Muslim Fanatics, oh yes, but that is because I live in the real world, not in a world of "Crossing the Isle and Singing Kum Ba Yah".

I too am finished with this thread, off to the world of straight razors.

John

Originally Posted by Bruno

You do know that Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein were trained and sponsored by the CIA, right?
What these men did throughout their career was wrong. But you paid them, trained them and gave them weapons and a cause.
The soldiers out there trying to deal with this mess are no doubt brave and trying to do a good job.
That does not mean that it could not have been prevented. It is still a consequence of poor long term planning and failure of the policy makers to consider other people.

It is great that there are so many people willing to defend the US. That is a brave thing to do.

However, if you want to point fingers or make remarks, much of the current problems are earlier bad decisions coming back to bite the US in the ass and the finger should also point to the ghosts of CIA directors past, and the policy makers of those days who drove over other nations without regard, in the struggle with communism.

To you and I and the average person, "poor long term planning" is a decent way of describing the evolution of the reality there. I firmly believe, however, that to those involved in profiting from the "war machine" the situation and similar situations like it across the globe, past present and future is perfect planning coming to fruition. Those involved in profiting from war couldn't be happier with this kind of thing and are undoubtedly more ecstatic than what's being reported as apparently the reaction of most U.S. citizens now.

I'll break from convention here; I don't feel elation at the killing of Bin Laden. I don't feel my adrenaline contributing to a collective war cry of victory. He was absolutely a heartless murderous dangerous lunatic. I guess I'm just not a big "vengeance heals" kind of guy. I did not know anyone personally that was killed on 9/11. I thought about this a great deal today and tried to imagine if I had known someone personally or maybe even had a family member killed on 9/11. Would I feel differently about the killing of Bin Laden? I decided I would not for two reasons: 1) No amount of vengeance no matter the scope would bring my loved one back. 2) When would it stop? How much vengeance would I need before it would fill even a part of the void or give me peace? I guess I'm just different than most. And after rereading my post I guess the two reasons I gave are really just the same reason but thought of in forward then in reverse.

Chris L

My brother is in Afghanistan fighting this war as I type this, so I feel that I have a modicum of appreciation for the stakes here.

I cannot, for the life of me, get my head around all the celebrations. I think he was a terrible guy (and yes the world is better without him in it), but I just can't make myself be happy about the loss of life. I honestly can't say that I know definitively how I would feel if I had more of a connection to the losses of that day, but I don't think it'd be much different. If I were there, I'd have a hard time not wrapping him in bacon instead of a white sheet, or maybe channeling my inner Brick Top and feeding him to the pigs. However, in all honesty, I think Bruno was right, and UBL's body was most likely handled the right way.

At the end of the day, IMHO, there was too much lost in terms of souls ("ours" and "theirs"), time, and money for me to celebrate. Seeing everyone act as if their favorite team just won a championship of some sort just really struck me as being unseemly. I think it failed to honor all the sacrifices made along the way. I won't compare it to those dancing in the street when the twin towers fell, which I wrote about in my journal in college... the only entry of the day, but I wish we hadn't had that reaction. In Tombstone, after the showdown at the OK Corral, when Kurt Russel (Wyatt Earp) says to the mayor, "well, I guess we did our good deed for the day, Mayor", that statement is received by just a somber shake of the head... I guess that's kind of how I feel.

All that being said, I fully recognize that mine is most likely a minority opinion, and I'm not going argue about it...

Originally Posted by Hirlau

Credit! What Credit? With who?
Politicians of the world ? Bruno you must be kidding me.
I want my "Credit" with the victim's families, not some Muslim politician. These animals that you are so readily available to appease, have butchered us for years, with little regard for our customs at the time of our deaths.

I don't want my son redeeming "Credit' from Muslim Fanatics.

Not credit with the family or the muslims.
Credit with politicians.

Like it or not, in order to get things done and to trade and prosper, you need other countries. International goodwill is important in politics. Now, from a legal point of view, the US action to kill OBL was illegal, plain and simple. However, from a moral point of view it was perfectly defendable.
In order to maintain political goodwill, approval from the international scene is important.

By doing this in a clean manner, the message from the US is that you saught justice, and even our Belgian politicians are saying on the news that they understand why it was done and had to be done and commended Obama and the seals for succeeding.
Had the seals gone in and tortured him, sewn him in a pig skin and then put him on a stake in front of the white house, you would have gained zero political goodwill. And while it would have been a victory, it would have worked against the US.

".... What is seen through the explosions is that this, no less than any other war, is not a moral war. Greek against Greek, against Persian, Roman against the world, cowboys against Indians, Catholics against Protestants, black men against white -- this is merely the current phase of an historical story. It is war, and to believe it is anything but a lot of people killing each other is to pretend it is something else, and to misread man's instinct to commit murder."

- Neil McCallum, Journey With a Pistol -

Originally Posted by DCasper

Heelerau, you are right, this has been a long war for both our countries. People are tired and it will be nice when this war is finally over. Do you know the three things a Soldier never wants to hear?

3. You never want to be on a British or Australian helicopter and hear the pilot say, "Would you like to see something really cool?"

That would be one of those Chinook helicopters pilots that said that to you?

From my friend's facebook status (US Airforce, BTW):

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." --Martin Luther King, Jr.

Seems fitting to me...

well this just goes to show that we may have many diffrent openions on things but we all can come together and act like gentlemen with very few big blow outs between us.


I say way to go SRp and thanks to all men and women serving for our freedom and to keep us safe. May this war end soon and let there finally be a period with some peace for the us and its allies.

Now all we need is video footage of the assault, to this music.
Reportedly, the action took 5 minutes so that would be a match.
They could have the choppers fly in and land during the intro, with the Bells tolling

YouTube - Metallica - For Whom The Bell Tolls with lyrics