Thread: E-cigarettes

It's can be difficult to not strive for perfection if you're already trying to improve upon a simple action. Especially with nuanced sensations such as "razor feel" or "flavor" of a liquid.

When I rolled my own cigarettes, I went through a ton of paper to get the roll just right and the amount of tobacco perfect, for me.

As far as e-cigs, I tried to maintain a certain amount of "sanity" on mods and tanks. Luckily, the kanger subtanks were love at first vape, my mutation v3 and doge v2 were enjoyable to work with and quality construction. I just spent a ton of time perfecting how I build my coils to the point that I can do them consistently and get the balance between vapor production/flavor/battery consumption just right, for me. I was tempted with the mod construction as well, but, electricity and I have had a pretty solid hate-hate relationship since I was a yung'in. Now, I'm battling the VF Classic mod to get it to function in temp control just right.

If you take a look at the original diacetyl study you'll see that the amounts of diacetyl in ecigs is FAR lower than the amount found in actual cigarettes. That said, all vendors I know about let users know the ingredients and whether or not their juice contains diacetyl. Most reputable vendors have steered clear of using it entirely.

It's irritating that most people parrot what the news stations say; "We don't know if they're safe yet...", "Not enough testing has been done", etc. The fact of the matter is that ample testing has been done on electronic cigarettes and it has been found that they are FAR more safe than traditional 'analog' cigarettes.

Lets take a look at some facts....

Propylene glycol aka "PG" - This is what gives users the "throat hit" found in analog cigarettes. It is also used as a flavor carrier as it doesn't mute flavor. It is metabolized into pyruvic acid, which is similar to lactic acid; the acid produced in our muscles when we exercise. You could literally inject 30+mL into a muscle and you'd experience no more than some discomfort and soreness. It is very safe. Hence why they use it in Asthma inhalers. I know it's anecdotal, but if it was bad for your lungs, do you really think asthma sufferers would be inhaling it? Probably not....

Propylene glycol metabolism and ingestion has been studied for decades. It is non-carcinogenic. It also happens to be antimicrobial when atomized into the air. I believe some hospitals use it in their ventilation systems to prevent the spread of infectious disease. I remember reading that some businesses considered using it as well, but it wasn't cost effective since the money saved was outweighed by sick time. A small percentage of people are allergic to PG and experience mild allergic reactions when inhaling juices containing it.

Vegetable glycerin - This is used to produce high amounts of vapor. It is a poor flavor carrier but it does provide some 'lung hit' as found in analog cigarettes. Do you eat icecream or use lotion products? If you do then the chances are high that you've ingested it. It's also used in things such as baby wipes. It is non-carcinogenic. It is metabolized into sugar. The amount of VG taken in from one hit or puff is so small if I had to estimate I'd say it's probably equal to around 20mg of sugar. The effects and heath risks of sugar are well documented. Think of how much sugar you ingest in soda or how much you put in tea. Soda contains upwards of like 40g per bottle.

Nicotine - There are LOADS of studies on nicotine and it's negative effects on the human body. It is, after all, a poison. However it is NOT a carcinogen and doctors say it is on par with caffeine in terms of negative health effects. It is a stimulant and can be highly toxic at relatively low dosages. Though the dosages in e-cigs per hit are so much lower than those toxic dosages that it becomes self-titrating. What I mean by that, is that the doses are so low it's hard to overdose, and that if someone does overdose the sickening feeling prevents them from reaching a dose which is life threatening. Sure, you could argue that if you drink it, it will kill you. That's certainly true. The same can be said about bleach. This argument is made by ANTZ(anti-nicotine/tobacco zealots) and directed towards children. If you are a parent who vapes keep the juice out of reach of children. It's common sense as nicotine is a poison. Emergency room visits due to nicotine overdose are caused by irresponsible parents. Those numbers are used and misinterperated/misrepresented by ANTZ to 'prove' that ecigs are bad.

Furthermore nicotine is a neuroprotectant and may actually help prevent neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimers.

Flavors -While there are a handful of flavors that contain chemicals such as diacetyl(there are others as well) the vast majority of vendors steer clear of using it entirely as previously mentioned. Not only that, but vendors list their ingredients so users can make informed decisions.
In the spirit of full disclosure(I'm posting to educate, not just to prove my point) I would like to mention that oil based flavors are not 'safe' to use. Vaping oils can cause oil-induced pneumonia and should be avoided. Aside from those things, the majority of flavors are safe to ingest. They're non carcinogenic and are ingested from food all the time. Vanillin, one of the flavors I use in my mixes, has been shown to reduce tumor sizes in mice. I use it in my every-day vape.

To those people who say "Our bodies are meant to inhale air" as if that fact means inhaling anything else MUST be hazardous to our health are doing nothing more than making wild illogical claims. Case in point; asthma inhalers. The same illogical logic(heh) could be said like this; "Our bodies aren't mean to eat anything but food"...While it's true we shouldn't go out eating say, lead paint or superglue, it's well known that there are many things we can eat that aren't food but are not only not bad for you, but are actually good for you such as antibiotics and the like.

Feel free to fact check any of the above claims. (I'm sure I may have mispoke once or twice as I typed this up pretty quickly.

I'd like to sum this up with a quote;

As to ‘not safe’, we perhaps need elaboration. The point I try to make when faced with the ‘it’s not safe’ canard is that nothing meets the criteria of being absolutely ‘safe’. Everything has risks, so simply pointing out that something is ‘not safe’ shows a person to be either ignorant or disingenuous. The key issue in looking at safety is that it is a relative concept; we need to look at safety of any activity compared to some alternative. Rather than the unattainable standard of ‘safe’ we should be thinking in terms of ‘safer’. Despite the risks associated with soccer, I would, for instance, prefer my children play soccer rather than play with live hand grenades.

- David Sweanor

Please don't just say "there hasn't been enough research" "They aren't proven safe, etc, ad naseum, and parrot what Big pharma has had the media say to you. Don't be ignorant. Do your research and google studies, but don't just stop at that. Compare toxin levels, check sources, and be sure to check who funded the study. Go look at lung scans before and after quitting smoking/starting vaping. If that doesn't convince you, I don't know what will.

To anyone looking to get into vaping; I highly recommend getting an ego twist with some sort of tank like a ce5....aside from that all you need is a charger and some juice. It'd cost you around 40-50$ to get started. I also recommend you mix up your own juice. It's WAY cheaper than buying it. 30mL goes for anywhere between 12-24$. You can make that amount for less than a dollar.(Just be careful and use proper precaution when mixing nicotine, especially if you have a low tolerance.)If you have any questions feel free to ask.

I used to smoke at least 1-2 packs a day but I started using e-cigs a few years back. Then I went back to cigarettes but in 2013 I was in an accident on my Harley in which i had a fractured pelvis, fractured back, 3 broken ribs & my left lung collapsed. Not being able to breath was really bad & I thought I was going to die. I was in ICU for 3-4 days & I had a hard time breathing but was doing a little better but wasn't thinking I was going to die anymore yet my lungs were so full of crap from smoking that a group of nurses along with the head nurse came around & they looked at me & the head nurse asked me if I could breathe. Those first few days, my breathing was raspy & my voice was very faint so they told me they were going to put some saline up my nostrils & that it would be uncomfortable but that I would feel better afterwards. They did so & it was very uncomfortable & the saline going in my nostrils & into my lungs I guess made a lot of crap come up until I finally couldn't take it anymore but after that, I could breathe. I felt so much better instantly so if it were to ever happen again, I would say go for it! Thankfully I have never had to go through that again. I quit smoking cold turkey because of that & my best friend kept asking me how I could do it because he had been smoking for at least 40 years or more. I told him I had willpower & determination & I do. I used to not but these days I can do it. I did start again but no cigarettes. I got a Kangartech Evod that had two e-cigs in the box with one charger. It would be nice to make my own coils & the guys at the Vape store down the street from me do it plus that is where I buy my liquids. On Wednesday's it's buy one get one free so when I buy them, I go on Wednesday's. My current intake is 15% nicotine & I buy two different flavors like my brother. We both use the same thing & one of them is specifically made for us only. No one else buys it. One of them that they sell all the time is called Trainwreck & the other is Stars & Stripes. When I walk in there it is so smoky because those guys must be in competition with one another & when they hit their huge units, they put out a lot of smoke or vapor. I don't like that much vapor, way too much! I know one thing, vaping is a lot cheaper than smoking cigarettes plus after not smoking them, they stink awful!

That's one heck of an accident! Glad you're one tough cookie and made it through.

Glad you kicked the ash!

I start with the evod's as well. I moved up when mine started coming apart and leaking everywhere (I drop stuff, a lot! Never a razor tho ) This caused me to upgrade to the aerotanks. Good quality, plus the all stainless is nice and durable. Then I upgraded again and again and again....

Building coils can easily be as addicting as honing/refurbishing razors.I haven't had to buy a pack of coils in probably 8 months or so, cost is pennies to make each. Evod's are pretty tough to rebuild tho.

I stopped building coils after the tfv4 and crown tanks came out. i have the rebuildable ones, but i havent played with them at all yet.

Originally Posted by dinnermint

That's one heck of an accident! Glad you're one tough cookie and made it through.

Glad you kicked the ash!

I start with the evod's as well. I moved up when mine started coming apart and leaking everywhere (I drop stuff, a lot! Never a razor tho ) This caused me to upgrade to the aerotanks. Good quality, plus the all stainless is nice and durable. Then I upgraded again and again and again....

Building coils can easily be as addicting as honing/refurbishing razors.I haven't had to buy a pack of coils in probably 8 months or so, cost is pennies to make each. Evod's are pretty tough to rebuild tho.

Thanks dinnermint. I've been down quite a few times but the Man upstairs has some reason to keep me here on earth & I hope it is a good reason. That particular accident, I had someone in my lane coming towards me & I had to avoid having a head on collision so I steered clear of that vehicle but after that, I lost control, my Harley hit the curb catapulting me into a fire hydrant. It is an experience I'll never forget. I had to be flown via medical helicopter to the Medical Center here in Houston because they thought I had internal injuries but it turned out I didn't, thank God.
I found a website that has great deals on coils, batteries & other parts for the Kangartech's. Type in Discount Vapors on Google & you will find them. When you first enter the site it asks you if you are 18 or older unless you hit one of the subtopics on the Google page. The store down the street from me is okay but for components & such, they mark these things up to make at least 100% profit compared to Discount Vapors yet they are friendly people & I know a lot of them on a first name basis & when I go in there, they know me because I always pull up on my Harley in front of their store. It's too bad the Evod coils are more complicated to build. I'm pretty mechanically motivated thanks to my dad, God rest his soul. He taught me most of the things I know. I was a factory certified Harley-Davidson service tech for many years so I'm sure I could do it if I knew how. I used to wind pickups for electric guitars but quit because it wasn't as profitable as I thought it would be. I would love to know how to rebuild a coil & I guess a good way would be to take one apart like I always did with things that quit working ever since I was a kid plus I always wanted to know what makes things "tick". I still have a little bit of wire left from winding pickups for guitars. I also found that when you have a problem with an e-cig, you have to do a few things such as make sure any oil is not getting on any of the battery contacts & you use a Q-tip to wipe them clean. Also it is always a good idea to clear the air holes out on the piece the coils screw into & I use a piece of guitar string or similar to do this. If the holes clog with oil, it is difficult to get a good hit from it. There are a few tips & tricks one must use to keep them going efficiently. I'll go for now because I see Prodigy has posted from an email notification I got minutes ago.

I've just switched to a Kanger KBox mod to use with a Kanger Aero Giant and Kanger Aero V2. I'm finding the KBox much better than my old basic mod, although I used a Smok epipe which I loved the shape of. It fitted great in the hand.

I can't be bothered with the hassle of building coils as any spare time I have is spent restoring SRs.

And you're right about the smell of tobacco engine46. It's only when you stop using tobacco that you realise how much it makes clothes etc absolutely stink.

Originally Posted by wayne394

I've just switched to a Kanger KBox mod to use with a Kanger Aero Giant and Kanger Aero V2. I'm finding the KBox much better than my old basic mod, although I used a Smok epipe which I loved the shape of. It fitted great in the hand.

I can't be bothered with the hassle of building coils as any spare time I have is spent restoring SRs.

And you're right about the smell of tobacco engine46. It's only when you stop using tobacco that you realise how much it makes clothes etc absolutely stink.

You're so right Wayne. I agree. I probably wouldn't have much time rebuilding a coil unless it isn't too time consuming because I spend spare time working on SR's & when I can't do that, I do research on things.

@prodigy: The crown is probably the easiest to rebuild, looks nearly identical to Kanger's subtank rba section. TFV4 is closer to a Kayfun style, never was a fan with that style. I don't blame you, those coils are pretty nice and can chuck pretty well at higher ohms. kinda hard to manually construct a single coil to handle that much heat.

@engine46: First, DO NOT VAPE WITH PICK UP WIRE. You can only rebuild with Kanthal A-1 or Nichrome resistance wire. I'm not sure what the composition of that wire is and would probably be best to avoid it. It's nice to see that you have picked up some good maintenance habits with the ecig. I can't tell you how many I have seen gunked to destruction. The problem with the evod coils is that they recently redesigned them and the press fit between the two tubes is so tight that when you take them apart, you break one or both pieces. As far as your accident, that is quite the harrowing experience. I've been to the hospital numerous times, thankfully for nothing quite that serious.

@wayne394: the Kbox is a nice mod, for that size and price point, it can't be beat.

As far as the build time for a coil, it's just like anything else. It takes some time to get used to and to develop shortcuts to speed up your building process. I can usually do a single build in 10 minutes, kind of on the slow side but I'm a perfectionist with them (better reliability that way). If I do an assembly process build, I can probably do 6-8 coils in half an hour.

Originally Posted by dinnermint

@prodigy: The crown is probably the easiest to rebuild, looks nearly identical to Kanger's subtank rba section. TFV4 is closer to a Kayfun style, never was a fan with that style. I don't blame you, those coils are pretty nice and can chuck pretty well at higher ohms. kinda hard to manually construct a single coil to handle that much heat.

@engine46: First, DO NOT VAPE WITH PICK UP WIRE. You can only rebuild with Kanthal A-1 or Nichrome resistance wire. I'm not sure what the composition of that wire is and would probably be best to avoid it. It's nice to see that you have picked up some good maintenance habits with the ecig. I can't tell you how many I have seen gunked to destruction. The problem with the evod coils is that they recently redesigned them and the press fit between the two tubes is so tight that when you take them apart, you break one or both pieces. As far as your accident, that is quite the harrowing experience. I've been to the hospital numerous times, thankfully for nothing quite that serious.

@wayne394: the Kbox is a nice mod, for that size and price point, it can't be beat.

As far as the build time for a coil, it's just like anything else. It takes some time to get used to and to develop shortcuts to speed up your building process. I can usually do a single build in 10 minutes, kind of on the slow side but I'm a perfectionist with them (better reliability that way). If I do an assembly process build, I can probably do 6-8 coils in half an hour.

dinnermint, don't worry, I wouldn't think of using pickup wire unless I knew it would work & I don't think I have enough left so I have a little I'll use should i need it for something else with such tiny wire. It is much finer than my blonde hair.
Thanks for the info though.