Thread: Learning Jnats with Microscope

Euclid,

actually, Tsushima is the cornerstone of my honing. It's because it allows me to easily jump from bevel setting, directly to the Jnat where I'll finish the blade. Otherwise, it's a good and affordable starting point when bevel setting is not needed, and I have to refresh a blade previously not so well honed, or test the different Naguras.

In a couple of weeks I'll have a Gujo Nagura that (I think, for what I saw & heard until now) can be an interesting alternative to Tsushima. We'll see if it's true and if it will be suitable for me and my limited skills.

Sooner or later I'd like to test some synth or hybrid stones as prefinishers too (e.g. Naniwa Gouken Fuji 8K or Morihei Karasu 9K or Nano Hone 10K) to see if something changes (when shaving) using these ones before the usual Jnat finsher.

I have heard good thing from all three stones, the Gouken Fugi gets good reviews and heard good thing on the Nano hone,

The Morihei Hishiboshi #9000 looks and sounds interesting as it is both synthetic and natural stone based. It gets good reviews, yet no screaming reviews.

There are currently a lot of good synthetic stones in that finish range (6-12k) of finishers, most are in the $100 price range.

Try making some Tsushima slurry on your 6k to get a rough Kasumi finish, not quite a Tsushima on Jnat, but a much smoother finish on a 6k and a straight edge.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Try making some Tsushima slurry on your 6k to get a rough Kasumi finish, not quite a Tsushima on Jnat, but a much smoother finish on a 6k and a straight edge.

The problem is... I haven't a synth 6K. Tought to buy it once... but never did.

Btw. My only synthetics are the King 1K and Naniwa SS 3K

Paraphrasing the first verse of the famous Beatles song "All Together Now", after two excellent shaves obtained first by finishing the blade with the Mejiro and then, adding the Ozuku Suita, I wondered if I could achieve "a little more".

Note: Ozuku Suita's Tomo Nagura is the one that microscopically has the finest appearance and the one that gives the best results when shaving, among all the Naguras in my possession. So... how to get that "little more"?

Inspired by a video seen these days, I wanted to try an oil finish on Llyn Idwal (Welsh Novaculitis).
So, after a light edge joint, I made two rounds on that stone. Got a pleasant feeling during honing and a quite nice microscopic aspect. The bevel shows a quite fine "Oil Kasumi" and the edge was quite (always IMHO of course) straight and clean. The blade passed the treetop test, but in a less aggressive way than the previous finish.

Shave test was positive this morning. I lost a bit of closeness, but gained a bit of smoothness. So, the final result was, more or less, very close to the previous ones.

Did I got a little more? I have to say no, not that way. But, at least, I didn't got a little less...

Novaculite edges are all over the map, first the stone can range in terms of fineness, and cutting ability, and depending on how the stone face was finished can affect its ability to cut or polish. Then there is technique, pressure, and amount of time on the stone.

You can spend some time on the stone with pressure to cut, or just do 3-4 lite laps to finish.

So, novaculite edges can finish very differently from Jnats. I have never found Llyn Idwal’s to deliver as fine an edge as American Surgical Blacks or Translucents.

The edge does appear a bit more polished, and that may be what you feel, a more polished edge with less tooth, smooth, less keen.

Nice looking bevel and edge.

I have a Nogura Botan and have always considered it a pre polish stone.

Like with all stones it's all about location.

Yes, it is.

Donato is using a Tsushima in place of a Botan to remove 3k stria and as a pre-polish base level, for testing other Nagura in a Tomo Nagura progression on an assortment of base stone.

The Tsushima is as aggressive as Botan but leaves a bit finer Kasumi finish. Of course, they are all natural so milage ...

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

I have a Nogura Botan and have always considered it a pre polish stone.

Like with all stones it's all about location.

For what I learned until now (not soo much... I agree ) The Botan is a bit on the lower side of finesse. In fact (if I'm not wrong), can be used to set the bevel in Iwasaki's Nagura progression. The real pre-polisher should be the Tenyo which, talking in Grit terms, seems to be around the same value of Tsushima. Mejiro instead can be considered a finisher (in that progression) instead of the Koma. I.e. the Koma seems to have the same finesse rating, also if it's faster than Mejiro. (see also: HERE)

Anyway, I'm actually using Tsushima as a pre-polisher mainly because of opportunity. A great Friend gave me some Naguras and I started to study how these ones worked on my base stones. I'm very happy with it until now but, of course, I'll test a Botan too... sooner or later.

Well, I got another small svedish razor: C.V.Heljestrand (Eskilstuna) shoulderless - 9/16".
The razor came home yesterday in good conditions and the edge passed treetop test.
Under magnification (as expected) it showed an ugly and narrow (the narrowest I ever seen) bevel.

I managed to mantain the narrow bevel after one of the best honing sequence I can actually work on. I.e. Slurry from Tsushima - Asano Mejiro and Asagi Tomo on Nakayama Kiita Koppa. Used 1 Kapton tape layer.
Assessing the results on microscopic images wasn't easy, because of that narrow bevel, but seemed as good as expected. Tree top test passed easily.

Today's shave was veeery smooth, albeit very close. Almost didn't feel the blade running over my skin. The post shave was great too. Btw, I used a cheap soap and didn't use any pre-shave product.

After some months of experiences with my Jnats & Naguras I'm becoming more and more confident about the final results. Being systematic paid off for my efforts and time, giving me an affordable and repeatable honing system.

Of course, I don't wanna say it's the best possible, but it's the best I can do now, with the stones/naguras I have.
More, I learned a lot about how the blades behave on the stones while honing and how to adapt the movements according to it. I almost can exactly predict how the shave will be, evaluating both how the razor behaves on stones and the results of microscopic observation.

Really a great school! And I have to thank once more @Euclid440, who encouraged me to follow this road and mentored me during this journey.

In this regard, I really wanted to ask Euclid if, based on his experience, I could achieve something more by using some other Nagura on my base stones or the Naguras themselves on some other more performing base stone. Whereas, both my Nakayama Kiita and Ozuku Asagi are two inexpensive Koppa. Is it worth spending hundreds of dollars to get better results? On the contrary ... are "really" better results possible? Of course I can improve my technique, use better the slurry but... if I shave with great pleasure this way and have a great post-shave... what's behind the corner..?

BTW. I have already got razors from good and experienced sharpeners (and I can say, without sounding presumptuous, that my honing results are practically at the same level), but I am currently waiting for a razor from one of the best known and most regarded sharpener in the world and I think this will become a touchstone to answer many of my questions.

“Is it worth spending hundreds of dollars to get better results? On the contrary ... are "really" better results possible? Of course I can improve my technique, use better the slurry but... if I shave with great pleasure this way and have a great post-shave... what's behind the corner..?”

Your edges are already better than 95% of honers honing their own razors. I am always amazed at what people will shave with and accept.

We talk about chasing the 2%, that ethereal bit of improvement. Most folks easily get to 90%, a good 8k edge and Chrome Oxide edge, (shaves, no tugging, no blood, no burning).

90-95% requires a bit more… technique, stones, razor steel. With a bit of dedication one can get to 98%. Remember most folks are maintaining a hand full of razor, honing the same razors maybe once a month, so they are honing 15-20 times a year or less and most just need a touchup.

The road from 95% to 98 is tough and takes a dedicated effort, we see guys take a year just learning to set a bevel and that is an epiphany for them.

So, past 98% everything counts, stone, razor steel, technique, understanding what it is you are seeing under magnification and dedication, not cutting corners, and working immaculately. Just a single grit from a lower grit stone, or a hair from an arm hair test, can muck up a pristine edge.

The difference between a high dollar Jnat and an inexpensive Kopa is usually size, and size does not matter, 4 inches of stone is plenty of stone for honing a razor. Then there is Provenance, (Now days dubious at best) and how a stone looks, color, figure, and cleanness (no imperfections), all of which may have no effect on the stones ability to produce an edge.

Provenance, most stone change hands several times before the get to the end user, so even if you trust your vendor, you do not know the vendors down the line or their veracity. Yes, a good retailer can steer you from junk but if a stone came from a particular mine or strata…

Add to all that, you have seen with all your testing, that there is really extraordinarily little difference in performance of base stones and all the different nagura you have tested. Really most shavers would be happy with the least impressive stones you have honed with.

Also remember that the vast market for sharpening stones has always been for tools and knives, aggressive large stones. Jnats had to be carried down the mountain on the backs of laborers. Smaller finer stones were literally pitched to the tailing as worth less. (a carpenter or knife sharpener will go through multiple stones in a lifetime, razors honers pass their stone on to their children). Now days, folks go through the tailing picking out those pitched stones for razors.

So, welcome to the club, is there more? Yes, maybe. Are there better stones than what you have? Maybe.

Better steel will definitely improve your edges with the stones you have now and with your level of technique.

Pro honers, honing for hire is all about time, how much time can one afford to spend on a razor? Most hone for the market and the market is the looking to shave without blood and will probably trash the edge after a few stropping’s.

At your current level, you will be able to produce an edge better than one you can buy. Not to say that the same Pros, given time could not produce a higher-level edge.

If you continue to perfect your process and hone a variety of razors, as you have, you will improve your ability to understand what you see through magnification and how to improve the edge, with technique. You are knocking on the door of 98%, it is more about consistency and problem solving.

Buying a larger or more expensive stone is never the answer, but for those of us addicted, that does not stop us from looking… and buying.