Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

Originally Posted by bpatton

The concept of god is a logical contradiction, and cannot exist if logic is acurate. To believe in god you must believe logic is not accurate. Hence the saying I am the ALpha and the Omega.

Lets drop all ideas we have put on God over the years Sir! I want to ask you just one simple question bpatton, Is there or was there a Grand designer of all things? I believe there was and is! that which stands at the foundation of all!
Now, I would like to say that this is the way I see things, but, as Justin has already pointed out several times, we are just specks in an infinite universe and we are arguing over things that are truly to big and vast for our puny little brains to ever completely comprehend!

Isn't the "Big Bang" scientific proof of God?

Steve

No there is not some designer. I have no proof and no arguement for this, just like you have no proof or valid arguement for your position. Thats just what I am saying. There is no way to know either way.

My point about god is exactly what you said, you have to drop any construct and any way of understanding to actually believe in god. Putting any structure on him/her means a logical contradiction. You have to say, I believe in a higher being and there is no way for me to understand him or anything about him. I'm not interested in beliveing something exists if I cannot comprehend its existence.

In response to Bruno, I very much believe there is other life in the universe. However that life is similar to us, not divine. I'm also dedicated to understanding the way the universe or existence as you might think of it has no purpose. What could be the purpose? There is no way to tell. I'm content to believe that I can do what is in my best inerests, get along in life, and go about my buisness. Life is great and horrible and everything in between.

It is silly to apply human attributes to things that are not human. Applying any human charecteristic to god is limiting him, including having a purpose.

Originally Posted by zepplin

Isn't the "Big Bang" scientific proof of God?

Steve

Why? Just because the most basic laws that science rests on were broken? The laws pertaining to the the creation and destructions of matter and energy.

If i were to believe that there were no divine bieng then I would take Nietches (sp?) "Without God ALL is permissible" as my core belief and then the fun would begin, the senseless genocides of the past, in all races and cultures... would be nothing compared to the chaos that would ensue.

And since folks have already argued against god(s)... let us throw out every rule, law, ethic and taboo that has been based on the teaching od one religion or another and see how quickly the human race ends itself.

If there where no god(s) man would have created one(them). Mainly as control method that helped to form civilization, people are willing to do things for a "higher purpose" that they otherwise would not have done, consider the giving to charity. As people have pointed out there have been atrocities done in the name of god(s), but there has been far more good done in that(their) name(s).

Consider the twentieth century, we saw the rise of atheism, the reduction of spirtuallity and religion and great ills that followed. Consider the two world wars, the rise of totalitarian states, genocide around the world how could they have existed had there not been decline in hte moral fabric that had held us from the abyss?

If one wants to claim that evolution and natural selection are the be all end all rules of the universe then there is no reason for any of us to restrain our natural urges. to aid with natural selection.... please maim, kill, rape and pillage to your heart's content. It will not be long before you will be wanting a few of those old religion based laws.

Of course one need to remember, the human being is not the highest form of life on the planet, he is the lowest. Like it or not the most important importantlife form on the planet is the most prevelant, to whit, BACTERIA. We are all simply tools that the bacteria which lives in us uses to propagate it's species and provide it with shelter and sustanance. Without bacteria we would be dead, without us many types of bacteria would die. We look for the outer god(s) but never consider the inner one, which a few hundred years ago science failed to believe in the existance of bacteria.

I for one fail to believe that this entire plane of existance has no purpose. but now to hedge my bet (call this agnostic)... i guess it is time to go on a spree... where did i leave that poleax and sword?

i believe in some or this

I notice many of us talking of laws and rules governing the ways of the universe and everything within that universe! my question remains the same, by what force are these laws and rules set in motion? who or what established these principles? Do we not owe this force our very existence?

there doesn't have to be a beggining. Everything that is, has always been and will always be. It just changes form.

to return to my prior argument, there has still not been any evidence put forth that supports the position that life, any life, comes from non-life. If anyone is asserting this position, then they are doing so on blind faith, with no evidence. If there is any evidence supporting this position, then show it to me.

I am not talking about evolution.

X, from a scientific standpoint, your position is just and untenable as mine. There are only scientific theories as to the beginning of life. Nothing can be proved. When looking around at the world, and all of its intricacies, we could be looking at millions of years of evolution, as set up by God, and developing as God intended. Or we could be looking a miracle of chance, the 1 to the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000 power probability that all of this occurred without some divine intervention.

You demand scientific proof that God exists and created all of this. I ask you for scientific proof that God does not exist, and that this universe, galaxy, planet, just simply happened. What scientific proof is there that life simply happened by chance.


As to Bpatton's assertions:

You assert that what exists now, has always existed, and will always exist, because there is nothing but existence. that is just as simple an answer to this question as me saying it was created. There is no response to your assertion, because it is a conclusory statement. You assert there is no begining and no end, everthing simply exists. I say there was a begining, there will be an end, and God created this existence.

You assert that life began in some primordial soup, by chance. You make this assertion based on blind faith, with no scientific proof. Why should I believe this assertion any more than the assertion that life was created by a divine being?

If we have no higher purpose, then why is life held so sacred? Why is it wrong to kill someone? they have no purpose here on earth, they are simply a thing, such as a tree, deer, or dog. So why is human life sacred?


I have danced around it, but now I will say it:

Most people try to conform God into being what they want, rather than submitting themselves to the overridding power and authority of God and conforming themselves to his will. We live in a very hedonistic society, which only values what is "good" for themselves. "Good" being in qotation for a purpose.

When a person is put in the ground at the end of his life, does he want his toumbstone to read" "here lies Mr. Smith, he was a lover of money, filanderer of women, user of drugs, and only looked out for himself. May he rest in peace."? NO

when any rational person is burried at the end of his life, he wants to be remembered as a person who lived up to the values esposed in the Bible, even if he does not believe in Jesus and the overriding power of God the Father. With this inate desire to be this type of person, why do so many people throw mud at the Bible, and all that it stands for. Almost all people want to be remembered as a person which held to the values set forth in this "book" so why dispariage it?

okay, my post above may be dated since I had to run to a meeting, and was delayed in posting. If the topics have been covered, I apologize for rehashing ideas already espoused.

Originally Posted by bpatton

there doesn't have to be a beggining. Everything that is, has always been and will always be. It just changes form.

sounds like God or god to me --- minus the beard and lightning bolts and humanoid form

I think for most people God is a thing without beginning or end or creator

O.K. so I won't believe in the traditional notion of God because I refuse to believe in a thing that has always been and always will be ---but I'll believe in "everything that is, has always been and will always be" --- yep sounds like God to me

Of course the concept that the universe is god is nothing new --- I guess we'll just take out the word God.

Justin

Brief diversion:

Justin, how is the fly fishing?

diversion over.