Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

Originally Posted by mhailey

Brief diversion:

Justin, how is the fly fishing?

diversion over.

Godly --haven't had much time of late but Zeus willing maybe soon.


Justin

Originally Posted by mhailey

why do so many people throw mud at the Bible, and all that it stands for. Almost all people want to be remembered as a person which held to the values set forth in this "book" so why dispariage it?

I don't throw mud at the bible. I think the book has real value. I just think it is not THE word of God.
The contents of the NT were determined by majority vote between somewhere along the 3d and 4th century, and a lot was axed in favor of the worldview of the voters. Which is probably why women have no significant role in the bible, other than as support people.

Even the Church itself says the bible was compiled via a certain process, so I don't think people have to be ofended by that fact. The bible is a human creation, as is the Koran, Torah, book of Wicca, ...
As such, I don't believe that it has divine authority.

Likewise, the religious institution known as catholic church (which I use as an example because I am a non practising catholic) is made by men with all their human failings. History shows that those men committed some grave atrocities in the name of God. So the religious institutions do not carry divine autority either imo.

The bible itself as we know it contains important values, but so does the koran and the torah, and all carry the mark who made them, and I think it is impossible to say that 1 would be absolute truth while the other is not.

go my brother and commune with nature. be one with the fish. catch them and eat them. You have more important things to do than discuss God, and all of his intricacies.

"As to Bpatton's assertions:

You assert that what exists now, has always existed, and will always exist, because there is nothing but existence. that is just as simple an answer to this question as me saying it was created. There is no response to your assertion, because it is a conclusory statement. You assert there is no begining and no end, everthing simply exists. I say there was a begining, there will be an end, and God created this existence.

You assert that life began in some primordial soup, by chance. You make this assertion based on blind faith, with no scientific proof. Why should I believe this assertion any more than the assertion that life was created by a divine being?

If we have no higher purpose, then why is life held so sacred? Why is it wrong to kill someone? they have no purpose here on earth, they are simply a thing, such as a tree, deer, or dog. So why is human life sacred?"


I'm glad you finally grasp exactly what I am saying. There is no proof of gods existence and cannot be. There is also no proof that the way science believes things happen is correct. My point is that this discussion is useless. It has been repeatedly asked what the atheists answers are to those questions, I just gave them. The whole thing is, it's not blind faith. I can actually read and understand the material that theorizes things happened as science says. I can UNDERSTAND their reasons. I don't have to go on BLIND FAITH. There are some things that are not understood. That just means there is more room for science to work. I don't think science can ever answer this question with finality. As I stated in my very long post which most peopel have ignored, THERE IS NO PERFECT ANSWER, nothing can be proved either way. My impression is the side with better reasoning is the side that stands with reason behind it, to the side of it, and in front of it. That would be Science, because it encourages you to think and doesn't require you to ignore your reason.

Why is life held so sacred? Come on, are you serous? I deny that there is anything "sacred" in the desire. The point of living is living, and continueing the species. Thats all there is. How about this, if there is an "afterlife" why is everyone afraid of dying? It wouldn't matter, unless you are going to hell. But then my guess is that even the most devoute person is afraid of death, of their existence ending. THis might be the reason that people as you say have an overwhelming desire to be remembered as a godly man. They don't want their existence to end. They hope god will be real, that he thinks they are godly, and will take their soul for heaven after death. Fear is a strong motivator.

I also completly deny that everyone has some innate desire to be remembered as someone that lived according to the bible. Thats 100% untrue. I really don't think someone who has never been exposed to it could have that desire. Also, there are plenty of people in our society that don't want that to happen. How about muslims, jews, sihks, hindu, and the many many other religons that are in the world. In our culture, because of the pervasiveness of the christian religon, many people view the values in the bible as the ultimate values. However, THAT IS NOT EVERYONE. I think many of the things espoused in the bible are bull (not slinging any mud, just stating my opinion), some others are very admirable. However, the main problem (which many will claim to be the main strenght) of the bible is that it cannot be nailed to one position. It is too easy to quote contradictory passages out of most versions of the bible. Take the debate over homosexuality, there are passages for and against homo sexuality. Everyone can find somthing to justify anything that they want to do, thats a problem in my eyes.


Again, the world would not stop spinning if religon wasn't around. Religon may be your reason for not killing every person you know, but it is by no means mine. I want to get along in society, have a family, and give them the best life I can. To do this there is the thing called the golden rule by some: treat others as you want to be treated. This would mean that I don't kill people because I don't want to be killed. I encourage progress and protection of the species, because I want others to do the same. I give to the needy because if I was needy I would want someone to help me out. Religon is not the rock on which society is founded, need created cooperation and thus society.




As for the god is the universe arguement, ummmm, ok. Just try not to call it GOD. God is associated with certain assumptions rising out of the traditional religions. You are much closer to the Wicca than anything to do with christianity. If you want to call existence god, enjoy. Its just avoiding the issue by saying I believe in existence and that's god. Well I believe in existence so I guess we are in the same place, but I don't know why you want to call it god.

I have already posted most of this stuff. I mean no offense, so please take none. I am not offended, I enjoy these conversations and have spent alot of time debating the subject.

I'm with bpatton. Another reason people don't go around killing each other, in general, is they don't want to be punished for it. I'm sure many more would if they thought there would be some advantage to be gained from doing it and they would get away with it.

As to the creating life in a lab, well believers just move the goalposts or say that it's proof of a god. Haven't basic proteins and maybe rna already been created?

Originally Posted by bpatton

"

As for the god is the universe arguement, ummmm, ok. Just try not to call it GOD. God is associated with certain assumptions rising out of the traditional religions. You are much closer to the Wicca than anything to do with christianity. If you want to call existence god, enjoy. Its just avoiding the issue by saying I believe in existence and that's god. Well I believe in existence so I guess we are in the same place, but I don't know why you want to call it god.

Why? -- I wouldn't be the first to do so-- and for me God has nothing to do with the assumptions of humans (as much is possible)---and I'm not avoiding the issue --- for thousands of years people have been dealing with the idea of God --- and one of the main problems is trying to wrap the old brain around something that has always existed and for ever will --- so you've solved that problem and labeled it existence or the universe --- whatever blows your skirt up ---- or do you have to assign benevolence , and anthropomorphic qualities to it for it to be God?

Again if any of us are so sure that we have God, the universe, etc figured out for sure ---absolutely ---leaving no room for error --- well that 's quite Godly --- start a church.

Justin

Originally Posted by syslight

Consider the twentieth century, we saw the rise of atheism, the reduction of spirtuallity and religion and great ills that followed. Consider the two world wars, the rise of totalitarian states, genocide around the world how could they have existed had there not been decline in hte moral fabric that had held us from the abyss?

I would have to disagree that the 20th century was any more violet, incident-wise, than any other...sadly, it seems technology made the killing for efficient. The Allies and the Axis both claimed God was on their side, each putting forth the appropriate text to support their views. The Allies moved into Europe and Asia under the moniker of "The Great Crusade" (the insignia for the US Army in Europe is still a crusader's sword), while the Nazis hearkened back to the Teutonic knights as inspiration for the uniforms of the SS and even further back into Germanic pagan tradition for support of their Aryan views. The Japanese military relied heavily on the Buddhist/Shinto belief system supporting bushido, their warrior's code. Again, I feel it is not the presence or absence of religion itself, but what each individual does with the socio-cultural norms that surround them, many of which are espoused in the world's religions. All the world's religions have been saturated with cultural influences which have nothing to do with the basis/origin of the faith itself.

We started here with a discussion of God's existence...here is a harder question:

Why is God?



Greg

Gents I personally think the moderator should lock this thread up. To continue will serve no further purpose. To discuss G-d is in fact a very personal thing and a matter of ones faith and its something you either believe in or don't. I don't see the purpose of continuing this. The more this is drawn out and the more we refer to outside references the more this whole thing smacks of prosletizing to me and personally I would find that extremely offensive. Why not just keep our personal beliefs to ourselves and maybe those dearest to us eh?

Remember this is a shaving forum not a religion forum or philosophy forum and even though its in the off topic area I think there should be boundries and I think we are about to cross them.

Torque it down til it strips then back it off half a turn. If the thread offends anyone they can simply not read it.

I'm learning a lot. Just try to be civil with each other.

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Why? -- I wouldn't be the first to do so-- and for me God has nothing to do with the assumptions of humans (as much is possible)---and I'm not avoiding the issue --- for thousands of years people have been dealing with the idea of God --- and one of the main problems is trying to wrap the old brain around something that has always existed and for ever will --- so you've solved that problem and labeled it existence or the universe --- whatever blows your skirt up ---- or do you have to assign benevolence , and anthropomorphic qualities to it for it to be God?

Again if any of us are so sure that we have God, the universe, etc figured out for sure ---absolutely ---leaving no room for error --- well that 's quite Godly --- start a church.

Justin

You said earlier that you think god is the entirety of existence, well, then you have nailed it down haven't you?

My point is just that saying god is existence is like saying a duck is a hippopotamus. God is traditionally associated with certain things (just like a duck has a beak), you can't get away from them and use the same term. If you really want to call god existence, what are you going to do with the word existence. It just doesn't make much sense to do. That being said, enjoy, its just going to confuse people.

Any my point was that you got away from the debate, god then simply becomes existence. Existence obviously exists, I think therefore I am. Therefore, your god clearly exists.





As a side note, the funny thing about anything we think about is that it exists, even if it is just an electrical impulse in our brain. So when you contemplate god, god actually exists in some way. Fun times deciding what we know....Epistemology.