Thread: Is it possible for us as men to have a discussion on God

Originally Posted by bpatton

You said earlier that you think god is the entirety of existence, well, then you have nailed it down haven't you?

My point is just that saying god is existence is like saying a duck is a hippopotamus. God is traditionally associated with certain things (just like a duck has a beak), you can't get away from them and use the same term. If you really want to call god existence, what are you going to do with the word existence. It just doesn't make much sense to do. That being said, enjoy, its just going to confuse people.

Any my point was that you got away from the debate, god then simply becomes existence. Existence obviously exists, I think therefore I am. Therefore, your god clearly exists.

I haven't told you anything I believe actually --- just taking part in the discussion --just probing --- just questioning ---- just wondering --- just being human ---just improvising ----and if anything I've supported your side in the past and may in the future --- I have nothing nailed down -- wish I could but I have enough problems spelling correctly and using correct gramar --- oops -- grammar ---but you make a good point and I appreciate it but I'm just not sure --- I'll let you know when I figure it all out ---

Justin

ok, just putting in my 2 Cents. Thought you were putting forth your beliefs. My mistake.




Bah! Grammar---It's just a convention.

Originally Posted by bpatton

ok, just putting in my 2 Cents. Thought you were putting forth your beliefs. My mistake.

No, I'm not that brave

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

No, I'm not that brave

Justin

Or maybe your just not as arrogant as some of us old bastards Justin!

Originally Posted by syslight

Consider the twentieth century, we saw the rise of atheism, the reduction of spirtuallity and religion and great ills that followed. Consider the two world wars, the rise of totalitarian states, genocide around the world how could they have existed had there not been decline in hte moral fabric that had held us from the abyss?

The Dark ages, the crusades, the witch trials, the inquisition,... were all in large part to caused by religion. Was it really that much better when the churches ruled supreme and influenced every part of normal life?

Originally Posted by bpatton

As a side note, the funny thing about anything we think about is that it exists, even if it is just an electrical impulse in our brain. So when you contemplate god, god actually exists in some way. Fun times deciding what we know....Epistemology.

You have reached true enlightenment when you realize that EVERYTHING is an illusion.

Originally Posted by bpatton

If we have no higher purpose, then why is life held so sacred? Why is it wrong to kill someone? they have no purpose here on earth, they are simply a thing, such as a tree, deer, or dog. So why is human life sacred?"

Yep, nothin but mammals, well, some of us are cannibals.
Life is life.
What did you eat today?
Toast?
Wheat murderer !!!
Eggs?
Chicken murderer !!!
Life is life.
What is the difference if it's human?
Glad someone else brought that up. I always get funny looks when I point this out.

Originally Posted by mhailey

When looking around at the world, and all of its intricacies, we could be looking at millions of years of evolution, as set up by God, and developing as God intended. Or we could be looking a miracle of chance, the 1 to the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000 power probability that all of this occurred without some divine intervention.

I believe you are being unrealistic about those odds there chief.
Lets see you type a whole universe of zeros.
Of course in the time it took you (infinity?) I would wager that you might have second thoughts about your position.

I'll start for you.
10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000
Are we there yet??
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000
How bout now?
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Don't make me stop this universe !!!!!
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Pretty sure I'm short a few million zeros.
I still like those odds better than some old man in the sky with a beard and a white robe that has a list of ten things we can't do or he will burn us with a magnifying glass.

And how did you come up with the belief that there is only one "Grand Prize" to be won anyway?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

....We haven't a clue as to the true nature of the Universe and are struggling to find answers. ......

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

....Again if any of us are so sure that we have God, the universe, etc figured out for sure ---absolutely ---leaving no room for error --- well that 's quite Godly --- start a church.

Justin

Jaeger-dude and Spending-Large,

You know, there is a group of scientist that subscribe to the belief that as soon as man discovers the true nature of the universe, it will immediately and instantaneously morph into something even more bizarre and inexplicable.....













....there is another cadre' of scientists that believe that this has, in fact, already occurred.



After reading the latest news about Idaho's illustrious lead senator and his arrest in a restroom in the Minneapolis airport, I'm inclined to fall in solidly with the latter group.


(...oh, sure! Mix politics & sex in the religion discussion! Just how many forum taboos can we break in one thread???....)

-whatever

-Lou

Alright. Let me just say this is giving me a right royal headache and we've completely missed the important points and are labouring over terms.

Originally Posted by JMS

I notice many of us talking of laws and rules governing the ways of the universe and everything within that universe! my question remains the same, by what force are these laws and rules set in motion? who or what established these principles? Do we not owe this force our very existence?

They are the natural order, naturally established and we are bound to it. That is all we can know about the bigger picture. We should focus on the finer points which govern our lives and ignore the god debate.

Originally Posted by syslight

Why? Just because the most basic laws that science rests on were broken? The laws pertaining to the the creation and destructions of matter and energy.

This never happens. Theories are only modified as new information becomes available. It is scientific to doubt theory. It is, however, heresy to doubt the most popular god(s).

Originally Posted by syslight

If i were to believe that there were no divine bieng then I would take Nietches (sp?) "Without God ALL is permissible" as my core belief and then the fun would begin, the senseless genocides of the past, in all races and cultures... would be nothing compared to the chaos that would ensue.

Since there are no gods, what stops you? I'M SERIOUS! This is the real question.

Originally Posted by syslight

And since folks have already argued against god(s)... let us throw out every rule, law, ethic and taboo that has been based on the teaching od one religion or another and see how quickly the human race ends itself.

This is what we are observing.

Originally Posted by syslight

If one wants to claim that evolution and natural selection are the be all end all rules of the universe then there is no reason for any of us to restrain our natural urges. to aid with natural selection.... please maim, kill, rape and pillage to your heart's content. It will not be long before you will be wanting a few of those old religion based laws.

Just because you cannot find your moral centre without your god doesn't mean that there isn't one to be found. I'm doing very well. Join me. The water's fine. I know you won't. I know you can't, but the invitation stands.

Originally Posted by mhailey

to return to my prior argument, there has still not been any evidence put forth that supports the position that life, any life, comes from non-life. If anyone is asserting this position, then they are doing so on blind faith, with no evidence. If there is any evidence supporting this position, then show it to me.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!
We do so based on the evidence embedded in eons of sand, so technically we are talking about evolution.

Originally Posted by mhailey

X, ... You demand scientific proof that God exists and created all of this.

I ask for none. I need none.

Originally Posted by mhailey

I ask you for scientific proof that God does not exist, and that this universe, galaxy, planet, just simply happened.

You are asking for an argument to ignorance. That is logical fallacy.

Originally Posted by mhailey

What scientific proof is there that life simply happened by chance.

Proof? Dunno, but the evidence is quite literally everywhere.

Originally Posted by mhailey

As to Bpatton's assertions:

You assert that life began in some primordial soup, by chance. You make this assertion based on blind faith, with no scientific proof.

*sigh* ... no ...
It is based on eons of evidence locked in the sands of time and found repeatedly to support the theory again and again over many years of observation.

Originally Posted by mhailey

If we have no higher purpose, then why is life held so sacred? Why is it wrong to kill someone? they have no purpose here on earth, they are simply a thing, such as a tree, deer, or dog. So why is human life sacred?

RIGHT! YES! THIS IS OUR CONCERN!!
You believe that the divine words of gods provide people with these mores and I fail to. I believe that we made them up on our own and you fail to. But THAT DOESN'T MATTER!!! The world over, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, etc .. all find a need for moral guidance. However it arose, our morality has a purpose for us? What is it and how best can we serve that need?

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

--haven't had much time of late but Zeus willing maybe soon.

JMS,

Do you see why I say you should separate 'compassion' from 'god'? People get stuck on the non-sequitur and find it immensely difficult to make any progress.

That's it for me. I'm done with this thread. Keep digging a pointless hole in your heads if you like, but I'm going on to where I can do some good.

X

Originally Posted by gratewhitehuntr

I believe you are being unrealistic about those odds there chief.
Lets see you type a whole universe of zeros.
Of course in the time it took you (infinity?) I would wager that you might have second thoughts about your position.

I'll start for you.
10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000
Are we there yet??
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000
How bout now?
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Don't make me stop this universe !!!!!
00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

The Drake Equation.

X

Originally Posted by Bruno

The Dark ages, the crusades, the witch trials, the inquisition,... were all in large part to caused by religion. Was it really that much better when the churches ruled supreme and influenced every part of normal life?

I do not believe religion caused people to do these things. I believe instead that in large part religion was a handy excuse for bloody, murderous men to indulge their darker sides! Men like this will find any excuse! If it hadn't of been for religion they would have said the creatures of the deep commanded them or some such rubbish! Hell, they may have yelled in the name of science as they eviscerated you.
Men like these can find justification for their actions anywhere! Which begs the question as to why, if there is no Supreme Being, that anyone would feel the need to justify anything they do? Who are they trying to convince anyways and for what purpose?