Thread: GLOBAL WARMING/CLIMATE CHANGE TRUE/FALSE

Originally Posted by TexasBob

Reasonable advice for scientists, but it makes it hard for us regular folks to talk about things.

See how hard that advice is to follow?

This is flat out absurd. My opinion is "based on peer reviewed scientific papers" which is exactly what I said in the first quote you put up. The fact that you said this and that sparq thanked you for it shows that neither of you are even paying attention...

Additionally, saying something is logical and predictable doesn't say that I'm definitively making the argument... I'm saying it makes sense.

Originally Posted by JMS

There are leaders and then there are followers. I think the climate change crowd wants us all to be followers.

I think I'll avoid jumping off that cliff just yet.

Mark, reread your post. Now, for a second stop and actually think about it before posting 'I think'. For example what is the difference between a leader and a follower.
If you want to be a leader you should actually do the hard work and get as close to the bottom of the issue, as possible. Following a political agenda is not a monopoly of the side you disagree with.

Originally Posted by gugi

Mark, reread your post. Now, for a second stop and actually think about it before posting 'I think'. For example what is the difference between a leader and a follower.
If you want to be a leader you should actually do the hard work and get as close to the bottom of the issue, as possible. Following a political agenda is not a monopoly of the side you disagree with.

Maybe you could reread it and tell me what I actually said Ivan.
When I was a baker just starting out I wanted to understand why I was instructed to do certain things. I would ask "Why do you want me to do this?" or "why does this happen when I do that?" etc. The answer almost always came back in one of two ways. Either "Thats the way we do thing around here" or "thats how I was taught" These answers were never good enough for me so I spent time experimenting and reading and learning. In time I knew and understood more about making bread than the majority of my peers. This same pattern followed most of what I did. I would ask "why?" they would say "because" and then I would search out the answer on my own.
I suspect this is likely so in the scientific community also. Many spout what they have heard or read from someone else without true understanding only a very few will seek the truth of the matter and they will often be villified.

Lets not all be lemmings please.

Originally Posted by 59caddy

you seem to have missed the entire basis of this thread, i asked if you believed in global warming/climate change. this not a conference on science.

actually I didn't miss it, reread my posts from the very fist one. I asked if this would be about actual arguments, or just a shouting match of who has what beliefs.
you have been discounting science and claiming the opinion of some scientists as a proof at the same time. my only explanation of how you reconcile these two things is that you call a proof anything that you perceive as supporting your opinion and a lie anything that is not supporting it.
and as a matter of fact you still don't know what my belief on the subject is because I have not stated it.

Originally Posted by 59caddy

yet you insist on using your science that is not EXACT it is only conjecture at best.

yes I do, despite of not being EXACT, because you have not offered anything else to be used that even approaches the rigor of the INEXACT science. There is nothing wrong to say 'I don't understand the science and I am not qualified to form an opinion based on science', but that's not what you guys are saying. You are arguing that the science is that way or another and that strikes me as rather odd, because you are skirting any discussion about the actual science.
A shaving analogy would be if a person who has all his life used an electrical razor to shave comes here and starts offering expert advice on which provides more comfortable shave, a straight razor or mach3. I'd be happy to discuss the topic with this person as long as he is willing to actually get down to it and use straight razor and mach3. Otherwise his opinion is perfectly valid and at the same time completely useless.

Originally Posted by 59caddy

again i would like to state, are we as mankind willing to make the changes to stop so called green house gas and stop the particulate matter from going into the atmosphere? when in fact it may be a natural cause that we may or may not be able to change. we need definite exact proof before we jump off the edge of the cliff and do grave damage to our economy and the worlds economy.

This is the only reasonable point so far. If you read post 47 you will find this in there. And let me tell you my general answer to the question - it depends on the 'need to do something', the 'cost of doing it' and 'the risk of not doing it'. And the fact that you've been completely discounting the first and the last of these, while insisting that the only important thing is the cost, well this gives your argument 100% worth as a political talking point and completely worthless as far as being rational.

Originally Posted by 59caddy

but on this one i think you may have actually driven more away from you ideas than you have brought to you side.

that's pretty sad. you think people would rather make their mind based on political leanings they have instead on actual research. because that's what i've been asking repeatedly and all i get in return is political talking points, logically false arguments, and declarations which I am supposed to take as undisputed truth.

i actually am not interested in changing anybody's opinion, just in challenging those who are capable of doing it to reexamine how they've formed it. as mark will assure you, i can be rather 'heartless' and do what is rational, not what is emotional.

Originally Posted by JMS

Maybe you could reread it and tell me what I actually said Ivan.

What you said was that you picked a cliff you didn't want to jump off, but didn't give any reason for it. So the conclusion is not that you don't like jumping off cliffs, but that you just didn't like that particular one.
Because other people don't want to jump off the cliff that you're sitting on.

I think I was pretty clear with my last sentence in that post.

Originally Posted by gugi

i actually am not interested in changing anybody's opinion, just in challenging those who are capable of doing it to reexamine how they've formed it. as mark will assure you, i can be rather 'heartless' and do what is rational, not what is emotional.

I wouldn't use the word heartless to describe you Ivan.
Ivan can be extremely logical but often times misses a bigger point. I must say, for all our disagreements I am quite fond of gugi.

Originally Posted by gugi

What you said was that you picked a cliff you didn't want to jump off, but didn't give any reason for it. So the conclusion is not that you don't like jumping off cliffs, but that you just didn't like that particular one.
Because other people don't want to jump off the cliff that you're sitting on.

I think I was pretty clear with my last sentence in that post.

I understood the jist of what you were saying but the last sentence really didn't make sense to me in that particular post you are speaking of.

I was just saying that I prefer not to be a lemming.

Oh, one more thing. I agree that there are lemmings on both sides of this issue...in case that wasn't clear.

Originally Posted by JMS

I was just saying that I prefer not to be a lemming.

the way you say this is not by saying you don't want to be part of one particular pack, but by saying you don't want to be part of any pack.

and btw, you've been watching too many disney movies, lemmings don't jump off cliffs, they are launched off them for profit and propaganda.
Cruelty to Animals in the Entertainment Business : Cruel Camera - Watch Video : the fifth estate : CBC News

talk about made up lies getting accepted to the point of becoming widely accepted metaphors....

Originally Posted by gugi

the way you say this is not by saying you don't want to be part of one particular pack, but by saying you don't want to be part of any pack.

and btw, you've been watching too many disney movies, lemmings don't jump off cliffs, they are launched off them for profit and propaganda.
Cruelty to Animals in the Entertainment Business : Cruel Camera - Watch Video : the fifth estate : CBC News

talk about made up lies getting accepted to the point of becoming widely accepted metaphors....