Thread: Christmas poll

[QUOTE=xman;509363]Ok. Try to follow me through this.


A known work of inconsistencies at the very least. At the other end of the story they can't even get the date and time of Jesus crucifixion right. Don't get me started on all the junk in that book. Really, if that's the best you can hang your hat on you're skating on thin ice to say the least.



Produce an inconsistency of any worth, not just a small change of wording .

Originally Posted by xman

But some opinions are backed by facts while others must demand your faith because they have none.

Obviously you don't believe in the God of the bible, so I will assume you do not believe in creation. So the Big Bang must have started it all.

Hold on I'll get to my point! SO, we both have to rely on faith and not facts for our beliefs, because I believe in an eternal being andyou have to believe in eternal matter and energy. Neither of which can be proven.

Originally Posted by ZMKA

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

- Epicurus

He gave man a free will and man chose evil

Originally Posted by ZMKA

I appreciate your faith. I was there once, but I'm not anymore.
I'm now a slave to logic. God has an open invitation to prove himself to me once and for all, and so far... I'm still waiting.
This matter of faith you speak are the unclaimed lottery winnings I spoke of. Till you got the goods, its all just talk...

The bible (to me) is so full of contradictions and WTFs that I just have to dismiss it. ..

Again I have to ask, please point out a contradiction in the bible without taking it out of context.

Well it has been very entertaining as well as educational to read different opinions on this theological subject. If i remember it right, Frederic the great, King of Prussia, said something like: Everyone should get blessed with his own beliefs. To me that sound how it should be.

Here is my pagan 2c:

Do i believe there is God(s): nope. I don't believe such thing. Even if he/she some day proved himself/herself to me, i still wouldn't have to believe because then i would know. Believing is opposite to knowing.

Do i know there's a God. nope. I have no way to find out with my limited human brains if there is a God or not. Might be, might be not.

For almost 20 years ago i had to spend some time in Lebanon because of my work. I saw what can be done in the name of the Christian God, as well in the name of Allah too, and i decided that i'm done for good with this bullshit.
As we have a freedom from religion here in Finland i resigned from the church as soon as i got back home. The question of the existence of God was far more important to me back than it is now.
I thought that if there ever is a God, he/she surely couldn't be found in any man made organisation or structure and no human tribe/sect/organisation has never a right to adopt him/her from the rest of the people. The changes that there is a Christian God are as high as there would be any other God, be it Allah, Brahma, some Chinese God or just some small God only few people know on some small distant island. We even have our ancient Gods here also, as few very nasty elfs. We also have our own Piru (sort of a biblical devil), but he makes the biblical devil look like 13 y.o. fat boy scout stealing cookies. I do not believe in these, or any other God either.

That leads me into question: Do Gods vanish, or cease to exist, on the moment they get forgotten? Is their existence dependent of the men believing them? If not, what's the point?

Originally Posted by Sailor

Well it has been very entertaining as well as educational to read different opinions on this theological subject. If i remember it right, Frederic the great, King of Prussia, said something like: Everyone should get blessed with his own beliefs. To me that sound how it should be.

Here is my pagan 2c:

Do i believe there is God(s): nope. I don't believe such thing. Even if he/she some day proved himself/herself to me, i still wouldn't have to believe because then i would know. Believing is opposite to knowing.

Do i know there's a God. nope. I have no way to find out with my limited human brains if there is a God or not. Might be, might be not.

For almost 20 years ago i had to spend some time in Lebanon because of my work. I saw what can be done in the name of the Christian God, as well in the name of Allah too, and i decided that i'm done for good with this bullshit.
As we have a freedom from religion here in Finland i resigned from the church as soon as i got back home. The question of the existence of God was far more important to me back than it is now.
I thought that if there ever is a God, he/she surely couldn't be found in any man made organisation or structure and no human tribe/sect/organisation has never a right to adopt him/her from the rest of the people. The changes that there is a Christian God are as high as there would be any other God, be it Allah, Brahma, some Chinese God or just some small God only few people know on some small distant island. We even have our ancient Gods here also, as few very nasty elfs. We also have our own Piru (sort of a biblical devil), but he makes the biblical devil look like 13 y.o. fat boy scout stealing cookies. I do not believe in these, or any other God either.

That leads me into question: Do Gods vanish, or cease to exist, on the moment they get forgotten? Is their existence dependent of the men believing them? If not, what's the point?

You say you don't believe in God because of the actions of man here on earth. Just because people say they are Christians doesn't make it so.
They are misrepresenting God when their actions go against Gods word.

You also say that Christianity is the same as Islam or Hinduism etc. which is not true.

Those religions rely on the actions of man for salvation or nirvana or whatever, In Christianity God did the work we only have to believe.

Besides historical evidence, fulfilled prophecy in the bible is also strong evidence that the bible is true. Prophecy fulfilled after hundreds or thousands of years.

Last but not least is the evidence of the change in mans heart when he truly becomes a believer. It is undeniable.

Man is given free will on this earth to do as he pleases, God does not want robots, he wants people who love him for the sacrifice he made in sending His Son Jesus here to pay for our sins. If people would truly follow Gods word this would be a much better place, unfortunately man is evil without God, so we have the mess we are in today.

God never vanishes, we just cease to look to Him. He offers us a free gift. We can accept or reject it.

Originally Posted by paco

He gave man a free will and man chose evil

He might have created man with more strength to resist evil.

just for the sake of the argument, all of you non-believers have this to consider: what if i, as a Christian am correct and you my friend are wrong?
would it not be logical to err on the the side of what is good for ones own self and what may last for eternity?
even if i were to be proven wrong, you would more than likely have a more fuller, happier life in the mean time....

The Lord has given man everything that we need and more. But humanists are in denial to the fact that man is wicked selfish lazy and stupid, and man is the one who has developed the mess that we currently find ourselves in, and in all fairness we have had plenty of help from the Devil and his angels. What we now have is not what the Lord created or intended to be, we are the ones who messed it up, of course we seem to have this inherent character trait of 'shifting the blame' to someone else anyone else even God if necessary or possible (just like our daddy Adam did, notice that - Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat., see? Same old song and dance.), if there is one thing that man is prone to it's rejecting personal responsibility.

Originally Posted by paco

:SO, we both have to rely on faith and not facts for our beliefs, because I believe in an eternal being andyou have to believe in eternal matter and energy.

No one who finds merit in scientific theories "believes" in them. They are what they are, theories with variable amounts of evidence. The difference being that people who find plausibility in scientific laws and theories are ready to concede their arguments at a moments notice when a better theory with more evidence presents itself.

I can't say that with any amount of evidence you would be willing to concede yours.

When a person actually *wants* to know the truth of the world around them, they have to be prepared to see all evidence that would discount their arguments and be willing to be proved wrong. There is absolutely no room for "beliefs" in that equation.

That is the difference between blind faith and scientific reason.

Edit: I will add that I'm fully prepared to acknowledge the plausible existence of a god or the man-god Jesus should a unsurmountable field of evidence present itself.