Thread: Strike against Syria

Originally Posted by Sailor

Stand corrected: They have no mountains. And maybe females even more interesting than cows (hear me, Alfhild!).

I think I'm getting mixed up with Switzerland, I'm so embarrassed. Next someone will tell me China isn't communist too!

Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

Well, you live and learn! Ta!

Yea, we don't really want every vote to count... Have you seen the Kardashians, or Honey Boo Boo? Giving all the right to vote on every topic probably wouldn't be the best idea... That is why the republic was set up that way... It may not be perfect, but total demacracy would be chaos at best...

The US: I don't believe that the people became ignorant of our government by chance. Our elected officials have intentionally "dumbed down" the populace, as its number increased, to be able to exert control over it.
If you have children in elementary or middle school you can see this in the material that they are taught, or rather not taught.
You can see this now in how we respond to our crises, be that economic or military.

Originally Posted by Johnus

The US: I don't believe that the people became ignorant of our government by chance. Our elected officials have intentionally "dumbed down" the populace, as its number increased, to be able to exert control over it.
If you have children in elementary or middle school you can see this in the material that they are taught, or rather not taught.
You can see this now in how we respond to our crises, be that economic or military.

I the the vast majority of voters are ignorant because of the changes in our society,The minority are intelligent.

The founding fathers mistrusted the common man and didn't want them to have too much power to decide Govt. That's why Senators were appointed by the Governors among other things. Maybe we should do things the way they did them back then eh?

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

The founding fathers mistrusted the common man and didn't want them to have too much power to decide Govt. That's why Senators were appointed by the Governors among other things. Maybe we should do things the way they did them back then eh?

Yes there are some that do believe that when the 17th Amendment passed it was a huge loss of Representation of the people


It was passed by the Congress and on May 13, 1912, was submitted to the states for ratification. By April 8, 1913, three-fourths of the states had ratified the proposed amendment, making it the Seventeenth Amendment. Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan formally declared the amendment's adoption on May 31, 1913.Critics of the Seventeenth Amendment claim that by altering the way senators are elected, the states lost any representation they had in the federal government and that, in addition to violating the un-amendable state suffrage clause of Article V, this led to the gradual "slide into ignominy" of state legislatures, as well as an overextension of federal power and the rise of special interest groups to fill the power vacuum previously occupied by state legislatures. In addition, concerns have been raised about the power of governors to appoint temporary replacements to fill vacant senate seats, both in terms of how this provision should be interpreted and whether it should be permitted at all. Accordingly, noted public figures have expressed a desire to reform or even repeal the Seventeenth Amendment.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Because it is not in Man's nature, never has been in the past, and doesn't seem to be in our future, perhaps a few 1000 more years of evolution, if we last that long

But we seem to forget history and the lessons from it way too fast

I think it is in our nature,but as we age,your probebly 20 yrs younger than I,When your Hollywood face looks like Burbank and your testoserone levels deplete.One peacefull evening 20 yrs from now,you and your wife will be sitting on the veranda sipping wine,watching the sunset.Your thoughts flitter between the beauty of gods creation and hoping the feds get your next SS payment sent on time and what is the shortest route to the nearest bathroom.
Than you will wish that everyone could get along.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

An Important Distinction: Democracy versus Republic
And this pert should answer both of you..

Simply put however, Majority rules until that rule steps on Individual rights.. So basically every Minority rights decision since the US was formed...

Look at the process of Gay Rights since 1970, nearly every Majority vote that has gone to the people has been against this and nearly all have been overturned by the Supreme court when challenged, which kicks everything back down to be re-worked..

Edit : Crouton beat me to an even better response

Please correct me if I'm wrong but the Supreme Court overturns them because they impinge on the constitutional rights of the minority in question. The Constitution as it was designed protects the minority in this example. It then gets kicked back to law makers to pass legislation further clarifying the rights of all citizens. Isn't this the way it's supposed to work?

Originally Posted by crouton976

Wrong, sir.

Hence my proclamation that the US is a Federal Republic, and a Constitutional Representative Democracy. The latter can be the former, but not the other way around. The main difference is the fact that a Democracy has no type of central leader role, such as a President, it only has a panel of representatives, who are bound to vote based on their constituents vote. A Republic, on the other hand, does have a central leadership role, such as a President, and it also has a panel of representatives, however, they are not forced to vote the way that the majority of their constituents do. A Democracy needs no central leadership role. A Republic does.

*Edit: Not trying to be mean or argue, just educate. I don't mean any offense and hope my post didn't come off as rude. I apologize if it did.

Please Crouton no offence has been taken. This has been a very gentlemanly discussion. We have stated our cases in a friendly and respectful manner. That's the pure essence of a civilized dialog.

Now allow me to state that nowhere have I ever said the USA in not a republic. There is no doubt that it is. It's also understood that it is not a direct democracy (none exist anywhere) but most certainly is a representative democracy as you stated above. It would then be fair to say that the government of the USA is a form of democracy and thereby allows the citizenry to affect change.
This has been my only point all along.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

What I find most disconcerting is that the people in this thread asking questions about how the Government works in the US seem to be mostly Canadians our closest neighbor.. Whose citizens cross the border every day on my neck of the woods and yet you guys have no idea how our government actually works
I have taken the time to actually read how your government works and although I don't understand that totally I sure have a general idea...

That's a fairly general and dismissive assertion
I think you'd be very surprised by how much more Canadians know about the USA versus the opposite statement. In fact my experience is that the average Canadian knows more about the US than the average American does. A bold statement I know but one grown from direct experience. I was born, raised and educated in the US mid west. Moved to Canada more than 20 years ago and have thoroughly experienced both ends of this equation. It's not close. Give them a bit more credit.

Originally Posted by crouton976

I'll say, this part of your post is spot on (except for the bit about it being a Democracy). Too many who have the power to stop the things they dislike in government don't even try to change it. Though, it's also tough to do when your elected official votes the opposite direction from the majority.

Thanks and I agree but don't think you can't change it. You can.

Originally Posted by Darth

...As for Syria, I will say that I am 99% sure that I am the only person on this forum with any real knowledge of what is going on over there, having just completed a 6 month rotation to Jordan recently, and am being told I will be going back soon. Without going into any great detail which I can’t and won’t for several reasons, it is safe to say that President Assad is a bad man. He should probably be replaced. Having said that, there are many other bad people in the world in charge of countries (North Korea springs to mind). I will let people research on their own the reasons behind the current civil war and the history of the region, i.e. its relationships with Palestine, Israel, Jordan; the religious makeup of the country as well as its cultural demographics; the rise and influence of the neo-Baathist party (which we replaced and outlawed in Iraq) and the atrocities committed by the government. If he is removed from power, who would take his place? Would they be more or less friendly to our (the US and our allies) interests. Remember, at one time we wanted to stop the expansion of Shi’a influence brought on by the Ayatollah Khomeini’s reign in Iran and we backed a young man who was our staunch ally in the region with money and material named Sadaam Hussein.

Oh great and wondrous wise one, you forgot to mention you (The US government, not You specifically) also backed Al Qaeda in it's early days too. Look what that smart decision got you! The CIA was running drugs during the Vietnam conflict through Air America to raise funds. Another wonderful decision. And those two are just off the top of my head. The US government is NOT the be all and end all to the bulk of the rest of the world. It does things where it stands to gain, as in the hire purchase scheme put upon the British/Australian governments during WWII even though it was in their best interest to jump on in anyway (Pearl Harbour). As in Kuwait's oil fields etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Stand corrected: They have no mountains. And maybe females even more interesting than cows (hear me, Alfhild!).

Yes Carl is confusing Sweden with Switzerland...I think it might be the dope.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honestly I am all for a strike,

BUT

With clearly defined targets and timing that would have been to our advantage, screwing around all this time for over 2 years and over 100k dead a strike is pretty much useless..
This is the problem of asking the UN once we do we lose the full effectiveness of the strike...

ie: If the world is going to complain about the US being the big stick anyway, regardless of what course we take, then the US should just either step away (Isolationism) or we should be the big stick at OUR discretion and to OUR advantage..

As per above, the world is probably really only complaining about the US big stick, because the US big stick ONLY ever acts like the big stick, if there is something to GAIN from it. Be it Power, Prestige or Money. Maybe just stepping back and saying, "Hey, look at that turkey on the other side of the world! Geez his neighbours are gonna be p!ssed off with him!" might be the right thing to do sometimes. Or perhaps, just jump in and help sort the sh!t out without first checking what's in it for themselves.


Anyway, all that is aside to my actual belief (until proven irrefutably wrong with non fabricated evidence to attest to the facts) that Syria didn't do this to it's own people. I don't think it's about how the US should or should not behave. Or what form of government is running the show. If something needs to be done, then the evidence should be brought forward and put on the world stage for discussion and appropriate action. It isn't the job of the US to posture and bark and foam like a mongrel dog on a chain before finally pulling free and attacking. Although it does seem to do that (rightly or wrongly)!

But don't take offence at what I say, I don't even like my own government!



Mick

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Because it is not in Man's nature, never has been in the past, and doesn't seem to be in our future, perhaps a few 1000 more years of evolution, if we last that long

But we seem to forget history and the lessons from it way too fast

That is sadly and painfully too true .

Originally Posted by gssixgun

pray that I never become President .

when that day happens.......we will all have sharp razors....finally.

Originally Posted by Johnus

The US: I don't believe that the people became ignorant of our government by chance. Our elected officials have intentionally "dumbed down" the populace, as its number increased,
If you have children in elementary or middle school you can see this in the material that they are taught, or rather not taught.
You can see this now in how we respond to our crises, be that economic or military.

Ahh the CORE learning program......it's doing such wonders for us.