Thread: New Immigration bill is TREASON

I agree with a lot of Bruno's points. In summary, I feel that the ideal course would be:

1. Get control of the borders.
2. Streamline the legal immigration process (and increase the quotas)
3. Crack down on the employers of illegal immigrants.
4. Deport any found illegals.
5. Add the number of illegals deported to the legal immigration quotas.
6. Provide a path to citizenship that starts at the American Embassy of the country of origin.
7. Institute a guest worker program that starts at the American Embassy of the country of origin.

I'm truly sorry to see this thread degenerate. I thought that there was a good, healthy exchange of ideas and viewpoints - just a bit too much vitriol for my taste.

-whatever

-Lou

AFAIK, the quotas of people allowed to immigrate each year are roughly based on the US economy growth... the intent being to make sure they will be able to find employment here when they arrive. The ease with which illegals can cross our borders completely disrupts any semblance of sanity in this.

Originally Posted by Bruno

So how is a poor foreigner -hoping for a better life- going to get in? ... hey just have to hand over x0000$ which they don't have...

Well, here in the Southwestern US (where many HUNDREDS of illegal aliens cross the border every day) many (most?) illegals pay a "Coyote" 2-5 thousand dollars to assist them getting across the border. Where did the illegal get the money? Usually from a relative already here (who is likely illegal, too) who sends the money back to Mexico, or by prostitution, drug running, etc. Once here they are often victimized by their own form of "mafia"... people who extort them with the threat of exposure and brining harm to family members still in Mexico.

Once here, many of the illegals work hard and keep out of trouble (for fear of deportation). But also, many don't... hence, the illegals constitute the majority of the members of street gangs, drug providers, and perpetrators of serious crimes (murder, etc.). They are responsible for the majority of the auto thefts (Phoenix has one of if not the highest auto theft rates in the nation). It's a huge drain onall levels of our economy.

Since most illegals don't pay taxes, they are a real drain on social services. They flood our school systems with their children (both the illegal ones they brought with them as well as the ones they have after they get here). Many of these kids require special education, they all require language training, and most get free breakfasts and lunches (often the only meals the child gets) and a host of social services that provide clothing, medical care, etc. The illegals typically live in a rented one-bedroom apartment or travel trailer that is shared by 3-4 families (maybe 5 adults and a dozen kids) so their tax contribution to support the services they receive is disproportionately low. If the parent(s) get deported the kids stay with relatives or neighbors until the parents can sneak across the border again and rejoin them.

It's hard to decide what to do for an immigration bill. Personally, I think it's all about what do you do with the the kids...

I don't think there would be much issue about deporting the adults if kids weren't involved. But almost every illegal from Mexico has kids... and many of these kids were born here (hence, they are citizens of the US)... so what do you do with the kids if you deport the parents? You can't deport the kids since they're US citizens. Their parents can't take them with them because they're US citizens (who would need to immigrate to Mexico). Catch-22.

None of the politicians are willing to take the "moral" hit in their image for breaking up families, etc. I think our priorities are wrong. We need to change some laws to stop the incentive to coming here illegally... IMHO, the laws need to be changed to discriminate against children born to illegal alien parents... if you're illegal, your kids are illegal even if born here. If one parent is legal, then the kids born here are legal. Then, let the deporting begin... illegals be gone! At the same time, we need to beef up border enforcement. And then we can address the 12-million already here who are caught up in our current quagmire.

just my $.02

Reading back it looks like the bottom half of my post had something to do with the top.
None of the bottom had anything to do with Bruno and I should have ended the post and started a new one in there somewhere to highlight that fact.
Bruno, it's not your fault that certain people don't want to speak English.
I was hoping to elicit an anti immigration response from Bruno by sort of throwing him the hot potato.

Now for a reasonable exchange of ideas.

Everything AZJoe said was true.

Did someone mentioned the Constitution here?
The 14th Amendment needs to be changed.

It had nothing to do with immigration and should not be construed as such.
It was concerning slaves born in the US and was designed to overturn a part of the judgment made in Dred Scott v. Sanford.
Go look at the context. How the US Supreme Court could smear that into an immigration policy (which is what it has become) boggles the mind.

As far as the drain on the educational system that azjoe cited, well it's true and it causes discrimination against white teachers who don't speak Spanish.

Pyler v. Doe dealt with education of illegal children. Go look it up.
The court decided that since there was no "substantial State interest" to be had by discriminating against these children that the state had to provide an education.
If that isn't a immigration policy then I don't know what is.

I get mad about crimes against my country and all of a sudden I'm doing something wrong? Muslims all over the world can riot over something as stupid as cartoons and we must be insensitive for printing them.

Since when is the ability to avoid offending someone else the yardstick by which a persons contribution to society is measured??

There is a little rant blended in this one but it isn't directed at anyone here.

It seems that a lot of people are mad over "the principle" of (illegal) immigration.
I was trying to point out that there are real situations here and that this isn't all just some intellectual debate over morals and "Deep Thoughts with Jack Handy" to borrow a phrase from Mhailey.

Maybe you don't understand why I am mad.
Maybe this isn't a problem where you live.

Come here. Go get a real good tan and dye your hair black and go job hunting.
When the perspective employer takes your app and starts talking to you in Spanish you just go ahead and tell them you only speak English.
Watch their face real close. Everyone has a tell. Long haired hippy people need not apply.
I've been denied a job because of it.

I was a foreman for a sheet metal roofing company once. We had a pretty fair number of Mexicans working there in the flat roofing division and none of them spoke English, at least not to the point of being able to read prints(or anything else).
Now, I really like Mexicans. They are hard workers and have a very nice sort of sing-song way of speaking Spanish and seem to be generally happy people.
I do disagree with illegal anything though.

So anyway... guess who they came to to talk to these guys?

Hey man, I'm just as white as you! How come it's my job to talk to these guys?
I'm not even their foreman, he's over there --> (didn't speak english either).

"Well, you look Spanish." says the owner of the company.

Yeah, and you look like a new shit stacking world record, what's your point?
You go learn Spanish. You're just as white as me and it's your damn company, you hired these guys.
You think that I should be required to speak an extra language just so you can pay a bunch of workers less??

"So what nationality are you??"
What the hell does that have to do with anything man? You got red hair, you speak Gaelic???

What I'm saying here folks is that when something is just expected of you you can easily come to resent it.

I did not learn spanish so that I can make life easier for someone who refuses to learn our language or so my employer can hire at a lower wage.
Besides, that practice undermines my wages so why would I want it near me??

I learned Spanish so I could talk to the workers because I thought they were nice people. They were my friends. I have taught more than a few people to speak english at lunch time.
That's right. We had English class at lunch. They loved it because you need it to be competitive.
I taught phonics and reading skills as a basis for language development.

Give a man a fish and such.....

Hope this clears up my stance a little.

Can someone in the know please explain Mexico's problems and issues -- any historical perspective here would be nice. I believe Mexico to not be a country void of natural resources ---fairly wealthy I think --- . Does it have something to do with Spanish influence and a certain mind set? Does it have something to do with Catholicism? (meaning a different sense of work ethic --in comparison to the Protestant work ethic adopted by the U.S.). Was there a different economic system in Latin America from the getgo -- maybe a little more class oriented. Anyway, I suppose the ultimate solution is in Mexico's hands --- what's the excuse?

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Can someone in the know please explain Mexico's problems and issues -- any historical perspective here would be nice. I believe Mexico to not be a country void of natural resources ---fairly wealthy I think --- . Does it have something to do with Spanish influence and a certain mind set? Does it have something to do with Catholicism? (meaning a different sense of work ethic --in comparison to the Protestant work ethic adopted by the U.S.). Was there a different economic system in Latin America from the getgo -- maybe a little more class oriented. Anyway, I suppose the ultimate solution is in Mexico's hands --- what's the excuse?

Justin

Justin -

I'll take a simple crack at it. Mexico seems to be a nation ruled by the "100 families" (if I remember the title correctly). In essence, a small group of families/politicians is making the economy a shambles (except for them). There is a fair amount of governmental corruption and such thrown into the mix as well.

I'm not well versed in all the nuances of the trouble there but I've heard these issue play a fairly large part in it.

Originally Posted by steve

Justin -

I'll take a simple crack at it. Mexico seems to be a nation ruled by the "100 families" (if I remember the title correctly). In essence, a small group of families/politicians is making the economy a shambles (except for them). There is a fair amount of governmental corruption and such thrown into the mix as well.

I'm not well versed in all the nuances of the trouble there but I've heard these issue play a fairly large part in it.

Yeah -- thanks Steve. I've heard about the corruption as well. But to think Mexico to be poor is wrong --- maybe the geography also makes extended infrastructure difficult?
Sad if it's just political --- maybe we should be pointing the finger a little bit more at this "100 families" situation and less at limits of our own charity ---proud Mexicans living in Mexico is a better fix I think.

Justin

Originally Posted by jaegerhund

Yeah -- thanks Steve. I've heard about the corruption as well. But to think Mexico to be poor is wrong --- maybe the geography also makes extended infrastructure difficult?
Sad if it's just political --- maybe we should be pointing the finger a little bit more at this "100 families" situation and less at limits of our own charity ---proud Mexicans living in Mexico is a better fix I think.

Justin

I never mean to imply that Mexico is poor as a nation. If the bulk of the population is living in poverty conditions, it would be, largely, because of the corruption, not because of any inherent lack of national resources.

Originally Posted by steve

I never mean to imply that Mexico is poor as a nation. If the bulk of the population is living in poverty conditions, it would be, largely, because of the corruption, not because of any inherent lack of national resources.

No -- you didn't imply that - - I'm just trying to make it clear (as far as I know) that they are not without natural resources ---


Justin

Here is a nice link someone sent me about visiting Mexico. They had some trouble there once and were concerned for me.
I suppose I might want to move as well.

http://www.bookwarren.com/moreinfo.html

BTW, this applies to any city in the Philippines too.